Mother of God

[Alithis]

Good support for the theology of: "Mary - the Mother of God"







So was Thomas guilty of blasphemy in John 20:28 where he specifically calls JESUS "GOD?" Was Jesus guilty of blasphemy to not condemn him for this but actually praise Thomas for using that title, for referring to Him as specifically "GOD?"

If Mary is not the mother of Jesus (whom the BIBLE calls "GOD"), who was? Who bore Jesus if not Mary?






As a Protestant, I believe you have NO MORE confirmation for your position here than the EOC and RCC have for their position that Mary was a perpetual virgin. You have NOTHING in Scripture that says she HAD sex, and the RCC has NOTHING in Scripture that says he did NOT have sex. You - by your dogmatic statement - are simply doing the identical thing the RCC does, you are simply condemning yourself for doing exactly what the RCC does: dogmatically proclaim a specific about Mary's private sex life after JEsus was born that you CANNOT confirm as true.

And don't quote the bit about Jesus' brothers: they could have been children of Joseph (especially since there is no word for "step-brother" in koine Greek), and the Bible often points to entirely unrelated persons as "brothers" (indeed, biblically, YOU are my brother - doesn't mean we were born of the same biological mother). And don't use the "until" point since the force of the Greek IN NO WAY implies that atfter Jesus' birth Joseph did have sex with her - that point MIGHT, MIGHT be remotely implied in the ENGLISH but not in the original. You have NOTHING to prove Mary had sex..... you are simply doing the identical thing you rebuke Catholics for: making a dogmatic statement about Mary for which you have no confirmation.






So, do you reject the divinity of Jesus (making the Bible, and Jesus, liars) or do you reject that Mary bore Jesus or do you reject both of those? I think rejecting EITHER of them makes you clearly unbiblical.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

ok you have skipped the passage of scripture which states that the son also will be brought into subjection.. and the term mother of my LORD "speaks of the flesh body of the lord ,his manifestation in the flesh. mary is the mother of the flesh son.. .that is plain and clear .the son..being the word of God that came forth from the heart of God has a moment of beginning in the flesh .. she is the mother of that flesh which began. and came forth as the WORD from GOD .he (he WORD) was before her ..he already existed he was not created .. thus she is the one hoe was chosen to bear him forth into the world .. she is not the mother of the creator who has no beginning for as with Abraham ..before mary was "I AM " - so nope she is not the mother of GOD who has no beginning .

did you forget that a mother is OVER a son . to suggest a created being is OVER GOD ..is a blasphemy . DId you not ever question WHERE this inane drive to elevate this beings renamed mary (originated from nimrods mother and sun & moon worship )- there is but one being who desires to be God and usurp by rebellion and lie a position of authority over the one true Living God . so why join in with this unceasing elevation of this being who stole mary's name .

i greatly respect and all the more accept the divinity of the lord JEsus by not cheapening it nor stealing his glory by lowering him to being UNDER a created being .as to raise the created being over that of the creator ..is nothing less then idolatry .

nice try . but to say mary is Gods mother . Denies the eternal existence of the most High God .for at what point did he not exists and at what point was he born of a woman into existence when he has no beginning.. .
there is a reason the term mother of God .. is NEVER used in the Holy Bible and has been introduced from outside the holy Scriptures and that is because the term does NOT originate from the Holy Spirit .but is contrary to it .
the inspired word of God would be self contradictory of GOD who has no beginning and no end .. had a mother . but his WORD who was with him and is him.. already was .. and became flesh .and mary wa chosen by virtue of the fact she was betrothed to joseph of the line of David .. to the the vehicle by which he was transported into the world .

i also note you left out the list of all the other things she is NOT .
as they also are not found in the Holy Scriptures of the 66 books of the Bible .

everything to do with the lord JEsus is foretold in the old testament and the new and fulfilled in the new or awaiting fulfillment . every doctrine finds its origins in the old testament and is expounded by the new .
this theology of mary as mother of GOD .. is found no where in scripture at all .except the term "queen of heaven" which is declared wickedness by God .

 

[popsthebuilder]

Here's another off topic bit of help for the folk who have some odd notions of what adoration might mean; and a little history - the Catholic Church has been using the word 'adoratio' from a time long before the English language existed.

ADORATION is the acknowledgement of God as God, Creator and Saviour, the Lord and Master of everything that exists. Through worship and prayer, the Church and individual persons give to God the adoration which is the first act of the virtue of religion. The first commandment of the law obliges us to adore. (from the Glossary of the CCC)

Adoration is the act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice. (Etym. Latin ad- to + orare, to pray; or os, oris, mouth, from the pagan custom of expressing preference for a god by wafting a kiss to the statue: adoratio, worship, veneration.) (click this link for the source)

That definitely didn't help your argument at all pagan, statue, adore / worship! Red flags popping up everywhere

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Alithis]

As a Protestant, I believe you have NO MORE confirmation for your position here than the EOC and RCC have for their position that Mary was a perpetual virgin. You have NOTHING in Scripture that says she HAD sex, and the RCC has NOTHING in Scripture that says he did NOT have sex. You - by your dogmatic statement - are simply doing the identical thing the RCC does, you are simply condemning yourself for doing exactly what the RCC does: dogmatically proclaim a specific about Mary's private sex life after JEsus was born that you CANNOT confirm as true.

this is possibly the weakest and most ridiculous argument that exist ever for any bible topic .

mary was married to joseph .. they had children .. after the birth of the messiah .
you get that from reading the plain text . you don't need to add to it or twist it or detract from it or manipulate it to read what is plainly written .

but you do have to ignore it add to it, manipulate it ,and twist it beyond recognition to say joseph already had children from another wife ..

show me that in the bible ! ouh you cant you must AGAIN introduce external teachings that do not originate in the bible to reinforce your opposition to the bibles plain unambiguous text .

-if you are going to have a love for the truth of the word of God .you are going to have to cease imposing external; teachings which oppose the truth of the word of God .

take a look at plain unambiguous scriptural

Matthew 13:55-56 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."

Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his own relatives and in his own household."

in truth and honesty .. you have to twist and writhe like a serpent under a boot to deny these verses .. and you CANNOT do so using the scripture itself ..
- time to repent of preaching a false teaching .

the mary of the Bible is not a perpetual Virgin.and no part of the scriptures ever said she would be . rome's mary is a renamed sun goddess - different being .

 

[popsthebuilder]

The words in the "hail Mary" are mostly from holy scripture. You can find them in Luke chapter one and even though some additions are present in the suppliant part of the prayer they are in keeping with scriptural themes.

Hail Mary, full of grace. (Luke 1:28)
Our Lord is with thee. (Luke 1:28)
Blessed art thou among women, (Luke 1:42)
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Luke 1:42)
Jesus. (The name of God the Son while incarnate on Earth and now in the heavens)
Holy Mary, Mother of God, (Luke 3:23, 38)
pray for us sinners, (Colossiand 4:3)
now and at the hour of our death. (a good time for prayers)
Amen. (a word found in holy scripture and meaning "truly")

Can you give me a clear answer as to why Catholics say God the Son as opposed to the Son of God?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Our fellowship alone worldwide is 67 billion. The cooperative agreements would put the figure above 200 million. So I think that we can safely say many.

are you talking about Catholics?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Josiah]

ok you have skipped the passage of scripture which states that the son also will be brought into subjection.. and the term mother of my LORD "speaks of the flesh body of the lord ,his manifestation in the flesh. mary is the mother of the flesh son.. .that is plain and clear .the son..being the word of God that came forth from the heart of God has a moment of beginning in the flesh .. she is the mother of that flesh which began. and came forth as the WORD from GOD .he (he WORD) was before her ..he already existed he was not created .. thus she is the one hoe was chosen to bear him forth into the world .. she is not the mother of the creator who has no beginning for as with Abraham ..before mary was "I AM " - so nope she is not the mother of GOD who has no beginning .

So, in John 20:28 (etc.), is Jesus being called "GOD" or not? Is the Jesus who stood before Thomas "in the flesh" or not?

Yes, OBVIOUSLY, the Second Person of the Trinity was before Mary (as Jesus notes that He was before Abraham)..... so, what it the world does that have to do with anything? Or do you think that the title is: "Mary - the Creator of God?" IF so, there is no such title. Anywhere. By anyone. The Title is Mary - the Mother of God.

So, which do you deny?
1) Jesus is God and may be called such, as the Bible teaches and as the Bible does?
2) Mary bore Him, as the Bible repeatedly states?
Which do you deny and therefore denounce the two things affirmed in this title?


BTW, a mother creates nothing. GOD creates the child, not the mother. But again, perhaps you think the title is: "Mary - CREATOR of God" which it is not. I've NEVER heard that title (it would be heresy) The title is Mary - Mother of God; ie she bore one who is God and is called God (in the Bible).





.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The words that the Catholic Church chose to use in her teaching were used with Christian meaning even if the language they came from pre-dated the birth of the Church. Words in the English language also come from source langues that are older than Christianity and hence are either pagan or Jewish

Generally source language is Latin Greek and a rabbit and Aramaic not pagan which is not even a language art. Just realized something else also Mary is always seen with the moon in some way shape or form right? Stading God the Son as opposed to the Son of God is also indirectly worship in the Sun. Comments please. I really mean no disrespect this is a learning process for me thank you

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

The words that the Catholic Church chose to use in her teaching were used with Christian meaning even if the language they came from pre-dated the birth of the Church. Words in the English language also come from source langues that are older than Christianity and hence are either pagan or Jewish

Hebrew. Forgot to mention Hebrew as one of the language arts Jewish is not a language

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Not as the Father but rather as mother of the faithful being the bride of Christ as the holy scriptures say.

The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come!' Let everyone who listens answer, 'Come!' Then let all who are thirsty come: all who want it may have the water of life, and have it free. (Revelation 22:17)​

So the faithful say come all who thirst may drink of the water of life without paying for it.

I'm confused as to how that pertains to my post that you quoted. I agree that salvation is not limited to I predict you'll set of Christianity or any other religion for that matter. I do object to it being available for polytheist or pagans or any that do not completely follow the teachings of the Christ holy under God.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Indeed it was and it still is; for the woman that God gave to his Son to be his bride is the Church of the living God who he bought with his own blood.

Do you think the traditional Catholicism is the only means to salvation through Jesus Christ under God?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

He said to the women, "Where are your accusers?" the Lord did not say "woman" in that passage.

That must be the Greek differentiation want to singular and one is plural. Just a guess though technically.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Can you give me a clear answer as to why Catholics say God the Son as opposed to the Son of God?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

We say both, in fact holy scripture says both. That is why we say both.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Good support for the theology of: "Mary - the Mother of God"







So was Thomas guilty of blasphemy in John 20:28 where he specifically calls JESUS "GOD?" Was Jesus guilty of blasphemy to not condemn him for this but actually praise Thomas for using that title, for referring to Him as specifically "GOD?"

If Mary is not the mother of Jesus (whom the BIBLE calls "GOD"), who was? Who bore Jesus if not Mary?






As a Protestant, I believe you have NO MORE confirmation for your position here than the EOC and RCC have for their position that Mary was a perpetual virgin. You have NOTHING in Scripture that says she HAD sex, and the RCC has NOTHING in Scripture that says he did NOT have sex. You - by your dogmatic statement - are simply doing the identical thing the RCC does, you are simply condemning yourself for doing exactly what the RCC does: dogmatically proclaim a specific about Mary's private sex life after JEsus was born that you CANNOT confirm as true.

And don't quote the bit about Jesus' brothers: they could have been children of Joseph (especially since there is no word for "step-brother" in koine Greek), and the Bible often points to entirely unrelated persons as "brothers" (indeed, biblically, YOU are my brother - doesn't mean we were born of the same biological mother). And don't use the "until" point since the force of the Greek IN NO WAY implies that atfter Jesus' birth Joseph did have sex with her - that point MIGHT, MIGHT be remotely implied in the ENGLISH but not in the original. You have NOTHING to prove Mary had sex..... you are simply doing the identical thing you rebuke Catholics for: making a dogmatic statement about Mary for which you have no confirmation.






So, do you reject the divinity of Jesus (making the Bible, and Jesus, liars) or do you reject that Mary bore Jesus or do you reject both of those? I think rejecting EITHER of them makes you clearly unbiblical.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

John 20:28 says my Lord and my God. God is not in all caps, and also is referring to Christ after resurrection which is not Jesus of the flesh prior to the crucifixion.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here's another off topic bit of help for the folk who have some odd notions of what adoration might mean; and a little history - the Catholic Church has been using the word 'adoratio' from a time long before the English language existed.

ADORATION is the acknowledgement of God as God, Creator and Saviour, the Lord and Master of everything that exists. Through worship and prayer, the Church and individual persons give to God the adoration which is the first act of the virtue of religion. The first commandment of the law obliges us to adore. (from the Glossary of the CCC)

Adoration is the act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice. (Etym. Latin ad- to + orare, to pray; or os, oris, mouth, from the pagan custom of expressing preference for a god by wafting a kiss to the statue: adoratio, worship, veneration.) (click this link for the source)

That definitely didn't help your argument at all pagan, statue, adore / worship! Red flags popping up everywhere

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

It is an off topic set of definitions posted in this thread because a number of participants were either confused about the meaning of the word 'adoration' or were using definitions applicable to secular English usage but not to Catholic (Latin derived) use. It is better not to disturb this thread by making an off topic subject into the theme of this thread.

 

[popsthebuilder]

We say both, in fact holy scripture says both. That is why we say both.

Can you please direct me to Scripture that refers to Jesus of Nazareth as God the specifically? Thank you.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Can you please direct me to Scripture that refers to Jesus of Nazareth as God the specifically? Thank you.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

God the Son specifically

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm confused as to how that pertains to my post that you quoted. I agree that salvation is not limited to I predict you'll set of Christianity or any other religion for that matter. I do object to it being available for polytheist or pagans or any that do not completely follow the teachings of the Christ holy under God.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Please, will you rephrase your post because I do not understand what it is intended to mean.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you think the traditional Catholicism is the only means to salvation through Jesus Christ under God?

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

Christ alone is the means of salvation.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Please, will you rephrase your post because I do not understand what it is intended to mean.

I believe the salvation is not reserved for those of any one particular sect of Christianity.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That must be the Greek differentiation want to singular and one is plural. Just a guess though technically.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I can post the Greek of the passage but unless the argument is substantial and directly related to Mary as the mother of God it would be an off topic foray into doctrines and ideas quite distinct from and not very directly related to the theme of this thread.