Once saved always saved?

[popsthebuilder]

even with his grace no man can lep the law .. righteousness cannot be obtained by the keping of the law ..

lol i need to scroll back and find out why we are talking about the law now ....

Only judges can uphold the law under God. One cannot be truthful without the other.

Generally an oft conscious attempt to do right as scripture describes and the conscience verifies and visa versa is right, under God. I do not think that none can be without sin under God. Surly it's the lower side of a large ratio.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[Brighten04]

In this debate, often the missing element is the free will of God. Our free will, is an extension of God exercising His free will. He is omnipotent, able to both perfectly accomplish all that He chooses, while allowing free will. I believe that our exercise of free will is a result of the imago dei. I believe that if the angels, who lived in the presence of god, were able to rebel and fall, we as believers can exercise our free will to reject the grace that we have received. I just don't think it is easy.

The fallen angels lived in the Presence of our Father. But they were created in a different class if being, not in His image, thus the anger and rebellion when our Father said Let us make man after Our image, after Our likeness.

 

[charis en excelcis]

The fallen angels lived in the Presence of our Father. But they were created in a different class if being, not in His image, thus the anger and rebellion when our Father said Let us make man after Our image, after Our likeness.

All things created bear, in some degree, the mark of their maker. I agree that there is something unique in man, nevertheless, the angels are occasionally used as example to us. In this case, I am astonished that anyone who stand in His Presence, to the degree that they stand in His presence, could rebel. And yet some did. If that is possible, then I think it is possible for a Christian to turn away from the grace previously received.

 

[Brighten04]

All things created bear, in some degree, the mark of their maker. I agree that there is something unique in man, nevertheless, the angels are occasionally used as example to us. In this case, I am astonished that anyone who stand in His Presence, to the degree that they stand in His presence, could rebel. And yet some did. If that is possible, then I think it is possible for a Christian to turn away from the grace previously received.

I see how you can come to that conclusion, but imho the purpose for the angels and the purpose for man is different. The purpose for man is much, much higher, even though man is created a little lower than the angels (created out of the dust of the ground). Man was created to have dominion over everything (including angels) our Father created.

 

[charis en excelcis]

I see how you can come to that conclusion, but imho the purpose for the angels and the purpose for man is different. The purpose for man is much, much higher, even though man is created a little lower than the angels (created out of the dust of the ground). Man was created to have dominion over everything (including angels) our Father created.

I quite agree.

 

[Brighten04]

Now, since we know why our Father created man, we can know that if He puts Himself in us through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit, so He is in us. We belong to Him now.Lord Jesus' blood purchased us. We are vessels of honor.

 

[Hammster]

2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." - John 10:2-5

Notwithstanding that all through John 10 there's evidence that He loses none of His sheep, and if He did it would cause a rift in the Trinity (as I've explain to deaf ears), but here we have Jesus clearly stating that His sheep will not follow another.

 

[psalms 91]

Yup the old baptist doctrine of if they fall away they were never saved but yet Hebrews 6 addresses that very issue

 

[Hammster]

Yup the old baptist doctrine of if they fall away they were never saved but yet Hebrews 6 addresses that very issue

And once again, the scripture that I actually post gets ignored.

That's pretty telling.

 

[MoreCoffee]

2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." - John 10:2-5

Notwithstanding that all through John 10 there's evidence that He loses none of His sheep, and if He did it would cause a rift in the Trinity (as I've explain to deaf ears), but here we have Jesus clearly stating that His sheep will not follow another.

John ten does not stand in isolation from John fifteen in which branches from the vine are pruned and burned. Those branches are in Christ until they are pruned and burned. Nobody can read the two chapters without coming away knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ wants the faithful to follow him and bear much fruit. "Once saved always saved" is a slogan that does no justice to the teaching of Christ.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. (John 15:1-11 KJV)​

 

[Hammster]

Once again, no interaction with the text provided.

 

[MoreCoffee]

John ten does not stand in isolation from John fifteen in which branches from the vine are pruned and burned. Those branches are in Christ until they are pruned and burned. Nobody can read the two chapters without coming away knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ wants the faithful to follow him and bear much fruit. "Once saved always saved" is a slogan that does no justice to the teaching of Christ.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. (John 15:1-11 KJV)​

Once again, no interaction with the text provided.

I noticed no interaction with either my post or the scripture quoted in it or the link between chapters ten and fifteen in the gospel according to saint John. But that is how the 'game' is played isn't it? The game is to avoid some passages so one can pretend that other passages are the clincher for one's point of view, right?

John chapter ten does not teach "once saved always saved". In the parable of the sheep fold the sheep fold is the Church: the good shepherd, and also the door is Christ: the thieves and robbers are false guides; the hirelings, such ministers as seek their own profit and gain, and a good living, as they call it; the wolves, heretics; the sheep not yet brought into the fold, the Gentiles not then converted.

Comments on John chapter 10 from The Cambridge Bible Commentary:

In chapters 5 and 6 two miracles, the healing of the paralytic and the feeding of the five thousand, formed the introduction to two discourses in which Christ is set forth as the Source and the Support of Life. In chapters 7 and 8 we have a discourse in which He is set forth as the Source of Truth and Light, and this is illustrated (9) by His giving physical and spiritual sight to the man born blind. In chap. 10 we again have a discourse in which Christ is set forth as Love, under the figure of the Good Shepherd giving His life for the sheep, and this is illustrated (11) by the raising of Lazarus, a work of Love which costs Him His life. As already stated, the prevailing idea throughout this section (5–11) is truth and love provoking contradiction and enmity. The more clearly the Messiah manifests Himself, and the more often He convinces some of His hearers of His Messiahship (Joh 7:40-41; Joh 7:46; Joh 7:50, Joh 8:30, Joh 9:30-38, Joh 10:21; Joh 10:42, Joh 11:45), the more intense becomes the hostility of ‘the Jews’ and the more determined their intention to kill Him.​

 

[Hammster]

I appreciate that you addressed the text. However, it doesn't say that the sheepfold hears His voice and follows. It says His sheep. It's made clear when He says there are other sheep to bring into the fold. He makes a clear distinction between sheep and sheepfold.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I appreciate that you addressed the text. However, it doesn't say that the sheepfold hears His voice and follows. It says His sheep. It's made clear when He says there are other sheep to bring into the fold. He makes a clear distinction between sheep and sheepfold.

You're the only one whose said anything about the sheep fold hearing. It's a red herring. Nobody aside from you mentioned it.

 

[Hammster]

You're the only one whose said anything about the sheep fold hearing. It's a red herring. Nobody aside from you mentioned it.

Okay. Then if it's the sheep which hear, my point (which is Jesus') stands. The sheep (His sheep) will never follow another voice.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay. Then if it's the sheep which hear, my point (which is Jesus') stands. The sheep (His sheep) will never follow another voice.

And what do you make of the branches pruned from the vine? The Lord himself teaches that he is the vine and the faithful are the branches so how can branches that are in the vine, that is in Christ, be pruned and burned if "once saved always saved" is in keeping with the teaching of Christ?

 

[Hammster]

And what do you make of the branches pruned from the vine? The Lord himself teaches that he is the vine and the faithful are the branches so how can branches that are in the vine, that is in Christ, be pruned and burned if "once saved always saved" is in keeping with the teaching of Christ?

Let's not move away from 10 yet. Will those who are His ever follow someone else?

 

[Brighten04]

Once again, no interaction with the text provided.

It is because people cannot believe the Good News that we are saved completely. Jesus saves us and keeps us saved. We are received into the Family of our Father forever with all of the rights and privileges due children of the Most High.

 

[Hammster]

It is because people cannot believe the Good News that we are saved completely. Jesus saves us and keeps us saved. We are received into the Family of our Father forever with all of the rights and privileges due children of the Most High.

Exactly. There seems to be something in them in which they feel the need to contribute in some way to their salvation. Scripture is clear that we are sheep with a Good shepherd who loves us in the same way He loves the Father. It's also clear that we are given to Him by the Father, and because of that He won't lose any that are given to Him.

We are also children, and what Father stops loving his children? No good one.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Exactly. There seems to be something in them in which they feel the need to contribute in some way to their salvation. Scripture is clear that we are sheep with a Good shepherd who loves us in the same way He loves the Father. It's also clear that we are given to Him by the Father, and because of that He won't lose any that are given to Him.

We are also children, and what Father stops loving his children? No good one.

Like fruit?

You mean that Jesus got it all wrong and they don't need to bear fruit?

Amazing.

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. (John 15:1-11 KJV)