Purgatory

[Andrew]

But the doctrine/teaching in the RCC about Purgatory was not proclaimed by a Pope, infallible or not. It was the work of a Medieval church council.

It's origins apparently go back all the way to Plato's time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

I still point to the Papacy who fail to repent and rebuke the claim unless I can be convinced otherwise that it's scriptural. it is Catholic teaching and only the Pope has the authority to address the issue and/or correct it.
God very well could do as he pleases and there may be such a place but I don't find a shred of evidence in scripture. If it's important enough to teach it must be included in the bible...
MC could you suggest to me the Apocryphal scriptures for me?
I am recently and still in the process of cleaning out my grandmothers house, I took home a hoard of Catholic books focused on Purgatory. In a quick scan through the books I find testimony of Catholic Saints who have claimed to have visions of it but they never quote much from scripture.

 

[Albion]

It's origins apparently go back all the way to Plato's time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

Something faintly similar to it maybe. But that's what we get with religion. Everything is somewhat similar to something else.

I still point to the Papacy who fail to repent and rebuke the claim unless I can be convinced otherwise that it's scriptural. it is Catholic teaching and only the Pope has the authority to address the issue and/or correct it.

Well, that's not true.

God very well could do as he pleases and there may be such a place but I don't find a shred of evidence in scripture. If it's important enough to teach it must be included in the bible...

I agree. The only verse that has any real bearing upon this is from 2 Maccabees (which is NOT an inspired writing). But even if it were Biblical, it is still nowhere near a justification for the complex theory of Purgatory. In that verse, we find Jews praying that their fallen comrades be loosed from their sins.

That shares with the doctrine of Purgatory about 1% of what makes Purgatory what it is supposed to be! And there is nothing in that passage which approves of that practice on the part of the Jews; it was simply what this group of Jews did.. The Bible records all sort of things that some Jews did which was not right just because someone did it.





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[Andrew]

Something faintly similar to it maybe. But that's what we get with religion. Everything is somewhat similar to something else.


Well, that's not true.


I agree. The only verse that has any real bearing upon this is from 2 Maccabees (which is NOT an inspired writing). But even if it were Biblical, it is still nowhere near a justification for the complex theory of Purgatory. In that verse, we find Jews praying that their fallen comrades be loosed from their sins.

That shares with the doctrine of Purgatory about 1% of what makes Purgatory what it is supposed to be! And there is nothing in that passage which approves of that practice on the part of the Jews; it was simply what this group of Jews did.. The Bible records all sort of things that some Jews did which was not right just because someone did it.





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It's similar because it's the same idea. I agree that it shouldn't discredit the truth, Christianity is not the first to believe in a heavenly Paradise and an abode in Hell.
The idea that 2 or 3 gathered in the name of Jesus as a church having virtue to what is true in Heaven and Earth may be the only argument that holds weight but we are also warned of false doctrines and false prophets, this is what I would like MC to address to make his case, is Purgatory sound doctrine or was it a man made idea?
Perhaps the idea of a place of purification was revelation given to Mankind early on by God, if so what is the evidence in scripture? If there is a lack of evidence then how can a church teach it?

 

[MennoSota]

Catholic Christians teach and are convinced that it is scriptural teaching so why would any Catholic be interested in pretending that purgatory is not scriptural?

Because some might consider the Bible as authoritative over tradition and unregenerate leaders in the church?

 

[Albion]

It's similar because it's the same idea.

Not at all! They are very different from each other!

v
Christianity is not the first to believe in a heavenly Paradise and an abode in Hell.

That's true. So, is the Christian concept the same as every other religions view of the afterlife?

The idea that 2 or 3 gathered in the name of Jesus as a church having virtue to what is true in Heaven and Earth may be the only argument that holds weight but we are also warned of false doctrines and false prophets, this is what I would like MC to address to make his case, is Purgatory sound doctrine or was it a man made idea?

Its a manmade idea, cut right out of the mindset of the time period when it was invented. But what do you suppose MC is going to answer?

Perhaps the idea of a place of purification was revelation given to Mankind early on by God, if so what is the evidence in scripture? If there is a lack of evidence then how can a church teach it?

How can some churches teach all the other things that are not scriptural? Cmon, man. They deliberately misinterpret Scriture to make it fit. You know that!

 

[Andrew]

Not at all! They are very different from each other!



That's true. So, is the Christian concept the same as every other religions view of the afterlife?



Its a manmade idea, cut right out of the mindset of the time period when it was invented. But what do you suppose MC is going to answer?


How can some churches teach all the other things that are not scriptural? Cmon, man. They deliberately misinterpret Scriture to make it fit. You know that!

I am playing slightly stupid because I want MC to respond
I call it the "nice cop" approach, Menno is the "bad cop" side

 

[Arsenios]

The only verse that has any real bearing upon this is from 2 Maccabees (which is NOT an inspired writing).
In that verse, we find Jews praying that their fallen comrades be loosed from their sins.

Orthodox Christians pray for the same...

That their dead be loosed from their sins...

That they find repose with the Just...

"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much..."

And I don't know about you-all, but when I pray for another, wonderful things happen...

When I pray for myself, not so much...

My personal prayers for myself are pretty much just pestering God...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Orthodox Christians pray for the same...

But your church is not calling that action or that verse a proof of some place in the afterlife that the Roman Catholic Church has defined as "Purgatory," is it??? No.

And that is the point here, not anything else, such as the value of prayer, the repose of the saints, etc. etc.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you think "purgatory" could refer to a time of purification of the soul while one is here....I'm this life/ existence?

peace

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It is believed that some people (specifically the canonised saints) have purged their sins before they die so their 'purgatory' is here on earth. Everybody purges - to some degree - their sins here on earth but not everybody has abandoned all the habits and moral flaws that lead to sins so when they die they need to be changed so that their desires are no longer bent towards sinning and that is what purgatory is for,

 

[MoreCoffee]

How so? Did you read the article?
This thread is about purgatory and apparently the Pope can save you from it via social media...

No pope that I have knowledge of believes or ever believed that a valid indulgence can be granted online. Every indulgence requires

• First, that the sinner has repented of sins and made confession of sins for which confession is needed
• Second, be in a state of grace before God having been forgiven and seeking to live their life in obedience and faith towards God
• Third, prayers and works that are prescribed in the indulgence must be carried out to completion before the indulgence can be in effect.

These things cannot be determined by a phone app or by a web page or other online means of communication. So the claim in your post is wholly erroneous and very misleading to anybody who reads it and believes it. You ought to withdraw the claim because of its errors.

 

[Andrew]

No pope that I have knowledge of believes or ever believed that a valid indulgence can be granted online. Every indulgence requires

• First, that the sinner has repented of sins and made confession of sins for which confession is needed
• Second, be in a state of grace before God having been forgiven and seeking to live their life in obedience and faith towards God
• Third, prayers and works that are prescribed in the indulgence must be carried out to completion before the indulgence can be in effect.

These things cannot be determined by a phone app or by a web page or other online means of communication. So the claim in your post is wholly erroneous and very misleading to anybody who reads it and believes it. You ought to withdraw the claim because of its errors.

What you say may be true MC, the article doesn't talk about what you just said, he is encouraging and with a promise that if they subscribe to his online sermons religiously than you might help you out of purgatory

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh, okay. I don't really see that as a salvific issue, but one would think the soul goes somewhere while waiting to be resurrected. Seems to me that it could all be a a reference to this time or life in a way too though.

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You are right not to see purgatory as an issue about salvation because only the saved endure purgatory and only the saved need it if they still are inclined towards sins when their earthly life is at an end. Purgatory is about the transition from earthly living with all its tendencies towards sinning and heavenly life in which no sin nor any desire to sin remains in the faithful who behold the glory of God when they see him face to face. In heaven the faithful are utterly and completely perfect having no trace of sin in them and no desire to sin remaining. The faithful in heaven desire only what is good - which is to say they desire only to be as God would have them to be.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What you say may be true MC, the article doesn't talk about what you just said, he is encouraging and with a promise that if they subscribe to his online sermons religiously than you might help you out of purgatory

Be careful about what you trust online; not every article is true nor is every post and every opinion. Take this advice - test everything; hold fast what is good. (I Thessalonians 5:21 [ESV2011])

 

[Andrew]

Be careful about what you trust online; not every article is true nor is every post and every opinion. Take this advice - test everything; hold fast what is good. (I Thessalonians 5:21 [ESV2011])

Im sorry, the article does call for good old fashion faith

""You can't obtain indulgences like getting a coffee from a vending machine," Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli, head of the pontifical council for social communication, told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks – such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate's house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

But attendance at events such as the Catholic World Youth Day, in Rio de Janeiro, a week-long event starting on 22 July, can also win an indulgence."

 

[MoreCoffee]

Im sorry, the article does call for good old fashion faith

""You can't obtain indulgences like getting a coffee from a vending machine," Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli, head of the pontifical council for social communication, told the Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

Indulgences these days are granted to those who carry out certain tasks – such as climbing the Sacred Steps, in Rome (reportedly brought from Pontius Pilate's house after Jesus scaled them before his crucifixion), a feat that earns believers seven years off purgatory.

But attendance at events such as the Catholic World Youth Day, in Rio de Janeiro, a week-long event starting on 22 July, can also win an indulgence."

I still - even after reading the qualification you quoted - must advise test everything; hold fast what is good.