What's the difference between God's will be done and "God wants all..."

Arsenios

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Nothing that happens in all of Creation, takes place outside of God's ordained will. Therefore nothing is free of God's authority. There is no free-will because the human will is not outside of God’s ordained will. It can only be within God's Sovereign reign. It cannot be outside or above God's authority.
Free-will does not, will not, and cannot exist if God is truly God.
Who is greater...man or God? What do you say?
If God is greater than man, then free-will does not exist.
If man is greater than God, then free-will exists and God is our servant.
What do you say?

I say that the Servant IS the Master...

What you present here is a solid philosophical case for the absence of free will...
Christianity is not a philosophical system...
It is God entering His creation to save the man whom He created in His Image...

You have proven that you are subjecting your theology to fallen human philosophy...
The actual Greek term for "free will" is "auto-exousia" - eg - "self-authority"...
As God-created, man indeed has self-authority, because he is createdin God's Image...

Heck, as the old ex-atheist I am, I can STILL prove that God does not exist...
I proved it to God Himself...
I like to think He smiled...
Because existence is created...
And God is NOT created...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Where in the Bible does it say that God has an ordained will?
Does this will ONLY allow BAD choices by man,
and does it then FORBID good ones?

This is a strange doctrine by any standards...

And then it gets REALLY strange:



God does not green light sin for us because He has redeemed us, OK?

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios
What would happen to humanity if God said, "No more sin."? Could free-will ignore that command and keep sinning anyway?
When you sin, is it by God's allowance or is God just turning his back or sleeping so that He is unaware?
Arsenios, all that takes place in all of God's creation, takes place by God's ordinance. There is nothing that happens by accident or by God not allowing it to happen.
Do you think God is unaware or sleeping, Arsenios?
 

MennoSota

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I say that the Servant IS the Master...

What you present here is a solid philosophical case for the absence of free will...
Christianity is not a philosophical system...
It is God entering His creation to save the man whom He created in His Image...

You have proven that you are subjecting your theology to fallen human philosophy...
The actual Greek term for "free will" is "auto-exousia" - eg - "self-authority"...
As God-created, man indeed has self-authority, because he is createdin God's Image...

Heck, as the old ex-atheist I am, I can STILL prove that God does not exist...
I proved it to God Himself...
I like to think He smiled...
Because existence is created...
And God is NOT created...

Arsenios
Self authority you say.
As opposed to God Authority?
I'll take God as the Sovereign Authority. You can have your imaginary "self authority."
The Bible says we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Only God is righteous.
Who are you a slave to, Arsenios, cause it ain't self authority.
 

Arsenios

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What would happen to humanity if God said, "No more sin."?

That day is coming -In the mean time, sin serves Righteousness unawares... The Bible calls it "The Mystery of Evil"...

Could free-will ignore that command and keep sinning anyway?

No - auto-exousia is the RULE in this fallen life - And from it, we self-determine our eternal future in the Age to Come... Where evil will be fully expelled... And none will desire to pursue it as they can so desire here and now...

When you sin, is it by God's allowance or is God just turning his back or sleeping so that He is unaware?

When I sin it is from my own self-authority... When I turn from sin it is by my own self authority...

In this fallen life, both options are afforded by God, Good AND evil, for that is the Fruit which Adam ate...

Arsenios, all that takes place in all of God's creation, takes place by God's ordinance. There is nothing that happens by accident or by God not allowing it to happen.
Do you think God is unaware or sleeping, Arsenios?

We only have a sliver of understanding here, my brother...
I do not try to justify God...
Adam had the auto-exousia to eat the Fruit, and he did eat...
That self-authority will be transformed in the Age to come...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Self authority you say.
As opposed to God Authority?

Yes - And I agree with you that it is WITHIN God's authority...

God has decreed auto-exousia for this fallen Age...

I'll take God as the Sovereign Authority.

Me too - Here, have another sandwich!

You can have your imaginary "self authority."

You just exercised YOUR auto-exousia when you said: "I'll take God as the Sovereign Authority..."
I just agreed with you - I do too...
So many do not...

The Bible says we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.

That's right - We cannot avoid works, and they will serve either Good or evil...
That is our inheritance from the Garden...
The decisioin is ours to make and be rewarded according to our deeds of either...

Only God is righteous.

That is why we have to be Baptized INTO Christ...

Who are you a slave to, Arsenios, cause it ain't self authority.

No it'aint, I agree - I am self-responsible for to Whom I serve...

Because...

Having auto-exousia, living as created in the image of God
I am self-responsible for ALL the decisions I make...
Whether for Good or for evil...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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That day is coming -In the mean time, sin serves Righteousness unawares... The Bible calls it "The Mystery of Evil"...



No - auto-exousia is the RULE in this fallen life - And from it, we self-determine our eternal future in the Age to Come... Where evil will be fully expelled... And none will desire to pursue it as they can so desire here and now...



When I sin it is from my own self-authority... When I turn from sin it is by my own self authority...

In this fallen life, both options are afforded by God, Good AND evil, for that is the Fruit which Adam ate...



We only have a sliver of understanding here, my brother...
I do not try to justify God...
Adam had the auto-exousia to eat the Fruit, and he did eat...
That self-authority will be transformed in the Age to come...

Arsenios
You have just espoused your man-made philosophy of free-will. Thanks for sharing.
 

MennoSota

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Yes - And I agree with you that it is WITHIN God's authority...

God has decreed auto-exousia for this fallen Age...



Me too - Here, have another sandwich!



You just exercised YOUR auto-exousia when you said: "I'll take God as the Sovereign Authority..."
I just agreed with you - I do too...
So many do not...



That's right - We cannot avoid works, and they will serve either Good or evil...
That is our inheritance from the Garden...
The decisioin is ours to make and be rewarded according to our deeds of either...



That is why we have to be Baptized INTO Christ...



No it'aint, I agree - I am self-responsible for to Whom I serve...

Because...

Having auto-exousia, living as created in the image of God
I am self-responsible for ALL the decisions I make...
Whether for Good or for evil...

Arsenios
Where has God proclaimed free-will for this fallen age. You're making it up once again. Man-made philosophy of free-will once again.
 

psalms 91

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Where has God proclaimed free-will for this fallen age. You're making it up once again. Man-made philosophy of free-will once again.
If we have no free will then how can God judge us? I mean we had no control over what we did? Does that sum up what you are saying?
 

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If we have no free will then how can God judge us? I mean we had no control over what we did? Does that sum up what you are saying?

Our will is bound to sin...in other words, we cannot choose God because we are born in a state of being distant from him (enemies of God scripture states). We know that God is just so that when he judges, He is just in his judgment and for those who do not have faith, they remain in their sin. We ALL deserve eternal damnation apart from faith in Christ. That is just. Does God reach out to all and give faith by His word? Scripture does not tell us. Those who reject the faith given though damn themselves. And that is just.
 

psalms 91

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Our will is bound to sin...in other words, we cannot choose God because we are born in a state of being distant from him (enemies of God scripture states). We know that God is just so that when he judges, He is just in his judgment and for those who do not have faith, they remain in their sin. We ALL deserve eternal damnation apart from faith in Christ. That is just. Does God reach out to all and give faith by His word? Scripture does not tell us. Those who reject the faith given though damn themselves. And that is just.
If they can reject the faith given then they have a choice and thus free will
 

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If they can reject the faith given then they have a choice and thus free will

No, that's not free will since rejection is our nature after the fall. We cannot choose faith, nor can we choose the holy way. God gives us faith and that's not our choice to make since He gives it to us as a gift. It is not by our will that we receive. We can acknowledge that He has given us faith and when people say that sinner's prayer or say they made a decision, they really only have realized that there is one true God and that He is our Savior...that's not that a prayer provided for them, because they had faith before saying such a prayer. That's also not to say that had to decide for God first since they reject God until He gives faith. It is by grace through faith that we are saved. No man can say Jesus is Lord except by faith.
 

psalms 91

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No, that's not free will since rejection is our nature after the fall. We cannot choose faith, nor can we choose the holy way. God gives us faith and that's not our choice to make since He gives it to us as a gift. It is not by our will that we receive. We can acknowledge that He has given us faith and when people say that sinner's prayer or say they made a decision, they really only have realized that there is one true God and that He is our Savior...that's not that a prayer provided for them, because they had faith before saying such a prayer. That's also not to say that had to decide for God first since they reject God until He gives faith. It is by grace through faith that we are saved. No man can say Jesus is Lord except by faith.
Thing is that if you read your posts you will see that younare trying to have it both ways and that doesnt work, either we have no will at all and therefore Gods judgement is not fair since we are programmed to act a certain way or else we have free will to accept or reject the offer of salvation. Anything else is straining to make something fit that doesnt
 

RichWh1

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No, that's not free will since rejection is our nature after the fall. We cannot choose faith, nor can we choose the holy way. God gives us faith and that's not our choice to make since He gives it to us as a gift. It is not by our will that we receive. We can acknowledge that He has given us faith and when people say that sinner's prayer or say they made a decision, they really only have realized that there is one true God and that He is our Savior...that's not that a prayer provided for them, because they had faith before saying such a prayer. That's also not to say that had to decide for God first since they reject God until He gives faith. It is by grace through faith that we are saved. No man can say Jesus is Lord except by faith.

Then how do you explain Joshua 24:15?
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord .”
Joshua 24:15


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psalms 91

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Then how do you explain Joshua 24:15?
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord .”
Joshua 24:15


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Yes, all through the bible God has given man choices
 

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Then how do you explain Joshua 24:15?
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord .”
Joshua 24:15


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Joshua was addressing the tribes of Israel! He wasn't addressing pagans and asking them to make a choice. Read the next verses because it shows that even though they strayed they were still the faithful to God:

16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! 17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God.”
 

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Yes but initially they were told to choose between God or gods of the Amorites.

They did choose the Lord of Israel


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Lamb

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Yes but initially they were told to choose between God or gods of the Amorites.

They did choose the Lord of Israel


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They had faith in God already in order to say, Yes, we'll be with you Lord. It's not like they were pagans.
 

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They had faith in God already in order to say, Yes, we'll be with you Lord. It's not like they were pagans.

They still chose didn’t they? We all have faith. It’s all a matter of where we place that faith.




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They still chose didn’t they? We all have faith. It’s all a matter of where we place that faith.




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We do not all have faith. We are by nature enemies of God (meaning, not with faith) 1 Colossians 1:21, Romans 5:10.

God gives us faith as a gift. We are all saved in the same manner, by grace through faith. If everyone had faith then everyone would be saved, but not everyone is. It's not the amount of faith, but the fact we have it. Look at what the faith the size of a mustard seed can do...and that isn't huge!

So, no. Not everyone has faith. The unbeliever cannot make himself believe in God because he does not have faith. If he had faith he would be called a believer.

The choice you think people are making is more of an affirmation toward God which isn't a choice. It's a realization and acknowledgement. Staying in faith isn't the choice that got them there!
 

Arsenios

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Rejection is our nature after the fall.
We cannot choose faith,
nor can we choose the holy way.

For this kind of knowledge, we need to very carefully examine the Genesis account of the Fall of Adam...

Adam fell in his immaturity by turning away from God and believing the Serpent through Eve, disobeying God... Because he was immature, he was not yet mature enough to eat of the forbidden fruit. It would kill him, and God warned him, and commanded him not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the center of the Garden... And the very day he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND evil, that day Adam died... He hid from God in the Garden in shame... And while he acknowledged his disobedience to God when God asked him, he did not repent, but blamed "that Woman YOU gave me..." So both God and the Woman were to blame for Adam's disobedience...

Now what is often overlooked is the REASON for the disobedience - For like any good son, Adam wanted to BE as his Father IS, and it was this that motivated him, that made him desire to believe the Serpent, who PROMISED him that he would not die, but like his Father would KNOW both Good and evil... The Serpent persuaded Adam that by partaking of this fruit of creation, that he would then as a consequence of eating creation become AS GOD...

So that in this immature hardness of heart in his error, he was banished from the Garden, and 'permanently' prevented from re-entering by the Cherubim with the Flaming Sword... Holy Tradition records that Adam never departed from the Gate of Paradise for his entire life, so heartbroken was he at what he KNEW he had lost... That his skull was buried there, and that this skull is what is referred to as Golgotha, the Place of the Skull... That it was in this very Place that Christ took up the Mantle of the First Adam when He ascended the Tree of the Cross and was crucified and died... And Arose the third day overcoming Death in His Own Body, into which we are Baptized... For we are Baptized INTO Christ... And into His Death on the Cross - His willful and voluntary and obedient Death...

So that to say that we are totally dead until we become members of the Body of Christ, of the Ekklesia, through Baptism into Christ, is not true... We are fallen, yes... We are weakened, yes... We have sinned, yes... But having been born into the Valley of the Shadow of Death, we can walk seeking what is Good, and we can walk seeking what is evil, and most of us walk in what amounts to an admixture of both Good and evil, and this from the Fruit of the Tree of which adam did eat...

Now God is a jealous God... One cannot have BOTH Good AND evil as one's Master... IF one desires both, one will die... And if one desires evil, one is an enemy of God and is dead already... And if one desires Good unto blood - eg unto the forfeiture of one's life - God will save that one in this life... For He said: "He who saves his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life shall find it..." So the issue we face in this fallen life under the rulership of death - For we all die - is the issue of how we are to conduct our lives, and in this, we have auto-exousia, which is "authority over self", and in this, these words from the Gospel become clear:

"IF anyone is willing/is desiring,
after Me to be coming,
let him first deny himself,
then take up his cross,
and be following Me..."


Man has authority ONLY over himself, and if he chooses Good, God will support that exercise of authority in this fallen life, and if he chooses evil, God will also support him, yet the second will then live the death he has chosen, and the first will life the Life that God will give him... After the Dread and Last Judgement... We live in a world of good and evil, and we have authority over ourselves - We may not have the POWER to DO Good, but we have the power to desire what is Good, even if we find ourselves unable to DO the Good that we DESIRE to do... Paul wrote of this speaking as one "knowing the Law"...

When, and more precisely after, we are Baptized INTO Christ, we then have the POWER to do what is Good and pleasing to God, for we are now a New Creation, having God now as a part of our human hypostasis, which we formerly did not have... Yet as children newborn into Christ, we function as little more than slaves, even though we are heirs to all... And we need to then grow in Christ unto maturity in the Faith that Christ discipled to His Disciples... "Be ye perfect..." is God's command that we mature, that we be able to eat of the fruit of the tree of KNOWING both Good and evil without becoming evil and estranged from God... For those perfected in the Faith of Christ are able to now eat of the Tree, because they have matured into following Christ in His Ascent on the Tree of suffering, the Cross of disgrace and accurssedness... And until they have done so, they are still immature and not fit for the meat of the Gospel, but only for the milk...

Goodness, this post has gone on long enough...

Arsenios
 
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