What's the difference between God's will be done and "God wants all..."

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Wrong, and scripture proves you wrong but hang on to those beliefs I am done here. I have said what needs said for anyone reading this thread
You have no proof. You have a handful of prooftexts you might use to try prop up the philosophy of free-will.
I shared Romans 8:28-30. Did you see the word predestined. What does that mean to you?
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I sin often. So far, God has said yes to me sinning. If He said no...I wouldn't be able to do it or I'd be dead. Read about Balaam and the donkey.
So God willed you into Sinning since he said Yes you can Sin? Do not mix up freedom of choice with Justifu........
nm
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
You have no proof. You have a handful of prooftexts you might use to try prop up the philosophy of free-will.
I shared Romans 8:28-30. Did you see the word predestined. What does that mean to you?

If man had no free will to begin with he would not have been able to sin in the first place!
So if there is no free will why is there sin?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
So God willed you into Sinning since he said Yes you can Sin? Do not mix up freedom of choice with Justifu........
nm
That's not what I said.
I have said that we make choices. Those choices always fall within the spectrum of God allowing those choices. If God did not allow them, we would not be able to make them.
Since all our choices are under the Sovereign will of God, they cannot be free of anyone and thus overrule God's will.
God's will always happens. This is true even when wicked humans kill other wicked humans or mistreat other wicked humans.
There is no one who is righteous. There are various levels of wickedness. Some levels are less intense than others, but all humans are wicked.
God's just action would be to destroy evil immediately. There goes the human species. Instead, God works His will through the wicked actions of men. God gives them over to their depravity and still accomplishes his good and perfect will.
What humans (both redeemed under unredeemed) fail to accept is just how wicked we all are before the righteousness of God. We cannot do anything good outside of being in Christ. God is still patient with humanity anyway and allows us to act wickedly.
Amazingly, His perfect will is being accomplished through such evil.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
If man had no free will to begin with he would not have been able to sin in the first place!
So if there is no free will why is there sin?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Again it is not free will. It is God's ordained will. If God had not given Adam and Eve the okay to disobey, Adam and Eve would not have disobeyed. For reasons only God knows, God said yes when Adam and Eve were being tempted. It's not unlike Job.
Free-will is a man-made philosophy. It's never expressed in scripture. No human is ever free.
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Again it is not free will. It is God's ordained will. If God had not given Adam and Eve the okay to disobey, Adam and Eve would not have disobeyed. For reasons only God knows, God said yes when Adam and Eve were being tempted. It's not unlike Job.
Free-will is a man-made philosophy. It's never expressed in scripture. No human is ever free.

So you are saying that man has God’s ordained will. Free will might be a philosophy, can you say the same thing about choice? After all man chose to disobey. Man was not preordained to sin. Was he? Are you saying God preordained man to sin?
Job did not sin. Adam and Eve did. Both has similar experiences. Yet one chose to obey the other chose to disobey.

I see no getting around it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
So you are saying that man has God’s ordained will. Free will might be a philosophy, can you say the same thing about choice? After all man chose to disobey. Man was not preordained to sin. Was he? Are you saying God preordained man to sin?
Job did not sin. Adam and Eve did. Both has similar experiences. Yet one chose to obey the other chose to disobey.

I see no getting around it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Man can only do what God allows man to do. If God had not allowed Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit, they would not have been able to do so...no matter how hard they tried. Therefore, man's will is not free to do whatever it wishes. It is only able to act within the ordained will of God. This does not mean God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit. Adam and Eve did so because they could. They could because God gave them permission, even though in permitting such an act of disobedience it resulted in corruption of the human race.
Why did God permit Adam and Eve to disobey? This is something that the Sovereign God knows and He does not specifically tell us. Paul alludes to the fact that God allowed sin so that He could display the attribute of His grace.
You might ask: How could God do this? Paul answers this idea of blaming God for sin in Romans 9. "How can the vessel blame the potter and say, 'Why did you make me this way?'." Read Romans 9 for yourself.
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
What's the difference between God's will be done and "God wants all..."

Man can only do what God allows man to do. If God had not allowed Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit, they would not have been able to do so...no matter how hard they tried. Therefore, man's will is not free to do whatever it wishes. It is only able to act within the ordained will of God. This does not mean God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit. Adam and Eve did so because they could. They could because God gave them permission, even though in permitting such an act of disobedience it resulted in corruption of the human race.
Why did God permit Adam and Eve to disobey? This is something that the Sovereign God knows and He does not specifically tell us. Paul alludes to the fact that God allowed sin so that He could display the attribute of His grace.
You might ask: How could God do this? Paul answers this idea of blaming God for sin in Romans 9. "How can the vessel blame the potter and say, 'Why did you make me this way?'." Read Romans 9 for yourself.

So are you saying Job was not able to sin yet Adam was?
It sounds as though you are.
Also you took Romans 9 out of context to form your own pretext.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
On the question of "What is God" we can read these two responses:
Jonathan Edwards

The Creator of the world is doubtless also the Governor of it. He that had power to give being to the world, and set all the parts of it in order, has doubtless power to dispose of the world, to continue the order he has constituted, or to alter it. He that first gave the laws of nature, must have all nature in his hands; so that it is evident God has the world in his hands, to dispose of as he pleases. . . .
And it is manifest, in fact, that God is not careless how the affairs and concerns of the world he has made proceed, because he was not careless of this matter in the creation itself; as it is apparent, by the manner and order in which things were created, that God, in creating, took care of the future progress and state of things in the world.

D. A. Carson

It is spectacularly wonderful to talk about God, to think about him. There cannot be any higher subject. But the word God itself is not an empty cipher. Just because somebody uses the word God and then somebody else uses the word God, it does not follow that they mean the same thing. God, for some, is an inexpressible feeling, or it’s the unmoved cause at the beginning of the universe, or it’s a being full of transcendence. But we’re talking about the God of the Bible, and the God of the Bible is self-defined. He talks about himself as being eternal and righteous. He’s the God of love. He’s the God of transcendence; that is, he’s above space and time and history. Yet he is the immanent God; that is, he is so much with us that we cannot possibly escape from him. He is everywhere. He is unchangeable. He is truthful. He is reliable. He’s personal.
What’s really important to see and understand, as God has disclosed himself not only in words but in the whole storyline of the Bible’s narrative, is that we are not permitted to take one attribute of God and make everything of it. We cannot, let’s say, take his sovereignty and forget his goodness. Or take his goodness and forget his holiness (his holiness is what makes him the God of judgment). Or take his judgment, even the severity of his judgment, and forget that he’s the God of love, the God who has so much loved even his rebellious creatures that ultimately he sent his Son to bear their sin in his own body on the tree.
In other words, to get to the heart of who God is and to bow before him in some small measure of genuine understanding, it’s important to think through what the Bible says again and again and integrate the whole with the same balance and proportion that Scripture itself gives. That calls us to worship. And if we put anything else in the place of God, that is the very definition of idolatry.
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
On the question of "What is God" we can read these two responses:
Jonathan Edwards

The Creator of the world is doubtless also the Governor of it. He that had power to give being to the world, and set all the parts of it in order, has doubtless power to dispose of the world, to continue the order he has constituted, or to alter it. He that first gave the laws of nature, must have all nature in his hands; so that it is evident God has the world in his hands, to dispose of as he pleases. . . .
And it is manifest, in fact, that God is not careless how the affairs and concerns of the world he has made proceed, because he was not careless of this matter in the creation itself; as it is apparent, by the manner and order in which things were created, that God, in creating, took care of the future progress and state of things in the world.

D. A. Carson

It is spectacularly wonderful to talk about God, to think about him. There cannot be any higher subject. But the word God itself is not an empty cipher. Just because somebody uses the word God and then somebody else uses the word God, it does not follow that they mean the same thing. God, for some, is an inexpressible feeling, or it’s the unmoved cause at the beginning of the universe, or it’s a being full of transcendence. But we’re talking about the God of the Bible, and the God of the Bible is self-defined. He talks about himself as being eternal and righteous. He’s the God of love. He’s the God of transcendence; that is, he’s above space and time and history. Yet he is the immanent God; that is, he is so much with us that we cannot possibly escape from him. He is everywhere. He is unchangeable. He is truthful. He is reliable. He’s personal.
What’s really important to see and understand, as God has disclosed himself not only in words but in the whole storyline of the Bible’s narrative, is that we are not permitted to take one attribute of God and make everything of it. We cannot, let’s say, take his sovereignty and forget his goodness. Or take his goodness and forget his holiness (his holiness is what makes him the God of judgment). Or take his judgment, even the severity of his judgment, and forget that he’s the God of love, the God who has so much loved even his rebellious creatures that ultimately he sent his Son to bear their sin in his own body on the tree.
In other words, to get to the heart of who God is and to bow before him in some small measure of genuine understanding, it’s important to think through what the Bible says again and again and integrate the whole with the same balance and proportion that Scripture itself gives. That calls us to worship. And if we put anything else in the place of God, that is the very definition of idolatry.

Would D. A. Carson or Jonathan Edwards say or believe that God is cruel because He makes some to sin and others not?
I doubt it. They were men of God who studied the Word thoroughly not partially.

Did God actually hate Esau?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
So are you saying Job was not able to sin yet Adam was?
It sounds as though you are.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure how anyone comes to that conclusion and I certainly don't know how you got there.
In Job we see that Satan goes before God to get permission to test Job. God says, "yes." God ordained the testing of Job, but God did not cause the testing of Job.
In Genesis, we see the serpent testing Adam and Eve. That serpent could not have done so, except by God saying "yes" to the serpent. God did not cause the fall of Adam and Eve.
Nothing that happens in all of Creation, takes place outside of God's ordained will. Therefore nothing is free of God's authority. There is no free-will because the human will is not outside of God’s ordained will. It can only be within God's Sovereign reign. It cannot be outside or above God's authority.
Free-will does not, will not, and cannot exist if God is truly God.
Who is greater...man or God? What do you say? If God is greater than man, then free-will does not exist. If man is greater than God, then free-will exists and God is our servant. What do you say?
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Would D. A. Carson or Jonathan Edwards say or believe that God is cruel because He makes some to sin and others not?
I doubt it. They were men of God who studied the Word thoroughly not partially.

Did God actually hate Esau?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Again, where in God's ordination is God causing and forcing sin? Where has anyone said such a thing.
It seems to me that people here have not thought through the horrendous argument of free-will in that it seeks to diminish and lower God beneath humans.
God hates all rebels. It is only by God's grace that Israel was chosen and loved. Israel had done nothing to merit such favor.
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Again, where in God's ordination is God causing and forcing sin? Where has anyone said such a thing.
It seems to me that people here have not thought through the horrendous argument of free-will in that it seeks to diminish and lower God beneath humans.
God hates all rebels. It is only by God's grace that Israel was chosen and loved. Israel had done nothing to merit such favor.

Where is it stated that God hates all rebels? God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die for those rebels!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
What's the difference between God's will be done and "God wants all..."

I'm not sure how anyone comes to that conclusion and I certainly don't know how you got there.
In Job we see that Satan goes before God to get permission to test Job. God says, "yes." God ordained the testing of Job, but God did not cause the testing of Job.
In Genesis, we see the serpent testing Adam and Eve. That serpent could not have done so, except by God saying "yes" to the serpent. God did not cause the fall of Adam and Eve.
Nothing that happens in all of Creation, takes place outside of God's ordained will. Therefore nothing is free of God's authority. There is no free-will because the human will is not outside of God’s ordained will. It can only be within God's Sovereign reign. It cannot be outside or above God's authority.
Free-will does not, will not, and cannot exist if God is truly God.
Who is greater...man or God? What do you say? If God is greater than man, then free-will does not exist. If man is greater than God, then free-will exists and God is our servant. What do you say?

God said yes to Job also. God is greater of course!
I understand that nothing happens outside of God willing it. Job was tested as Adam was yet Job did not sin. Did Adam choose to sin? Did Job choose to not sin?
If you answer yes then that would mean man has choice.
If you say no then that would mean God caused Adam to sin and caused Job to not sin. thus making God the Author of sin.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Where is it stated that God hates all rebels? God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die for those rebels!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Psalm 11:5
The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
All humans are born in rebellion. They are by nature...rebels.
John 3:16 is referring to the elect, not all humanity, in whom He is redeeming. The "whosoever" is the elect. God chose to exhibit His love to this world and choose some who would believe...because He would make them alive.
Jesus did die for some of the rebels. He did not die for all of the rebels. His atoning sacrifice is limited to the elect. If it were for all...then all would be made righteous in Christ Jesus. But, the Bible tells us not all are made righteous. "The road to destruction is wide and many follow it."
If it were not for God's elective grace, all would perish in their sins, just as all fallen angels perish in their rebellion. But, God loved humans so much that he elects to redeem some by His own choosing. Sovereigns can do that sort of thing. They get to choose.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
God said yes to Job also. God is greater of course!
I understand that nothing happens outside of God willing it. Job was tested as Adam was yet Job did not sin. Did Adam choose to sin? Did Job choose to not sin?
If you answer yes then that would mean man has choice.
If you say no then that would mean God caused Adam to sin and caused Job to not sin. thus making God the Author of sin.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Job did not sin, though God may have said "yes" if Job had sinned. That is for God, in His Sovereignty, to decide. We don't have that authority.
Free-will philosophy wants to give man that authority and therefore place man over and above God.
Later in Job we read of Job trying to place God into a box and blame God, but God rebukes Him and reminds Job how little Job knows. It is wise for us to acknowledge God's Sovereign nature and accept that God does and chooses to do as He wills without ever having to tell us why. It is foolish to imagine that our will is somehow free of God's Sovereignty.
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Who are called to repentance?

Luke 5:32. "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance”

Who are sinners?

Romans 3:22-23
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

RichWh1

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2018
Messages
709
Age
77
Location
Tarpon Springs FL
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Job did not sin, though God may have said "yes" if Job had sinned. That is for God, in His Sovereignty, to decide. We don't have that authority.
Free-will philosophy wants to give man that authority and therefore place man over and above God.
Later in Job we read of Job trying to place God into a box and blame God, but God rebukes Him and reminds Job how little Job knows. It is wise for us to acknowledge God's Sovereign nature and accept that God does and chooses to do as He wills without ever having to tell us why. It is foolish to imagine that our will is somehow free of God's Sovereignty.

What are you trying to say? God may have said yes? To what? Fact: Adam sinned; Job did not sin when tempted!
I am not putting God in a box or blaming God for man sinning.
You seem to be saying that it’s not God’s business whether one sins or not.
You said it is not for God to decide whether Job sinned or not. How can a God who is holy ( separated from sin) will some to sin ? Seems you are saying God is the Author of sin.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
54
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
What are you trying to say? God may have said yes? To what? Fact: Adam sinned; Job did not sin when tempted!
I am not putting God in a box or blaming God for man sinning.
You seem to be saying that it’s not God’s business whether one sins or not.
You said it is not for God to decide whether Job sinned or not. How can a God who is holy ( separated from sin) will some to sin ? Seems you are saying God is the Author of sin.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm saying that we don't know if God would have allowed Job to sin or not because in that situation Job didn't sin. Later in Job we see that God corrects Jobs thinking.
Please quote where I say "It is not for God to decide whether Job sinned."
Second, what don't you understand when I say "God did NOT cause Adam or Job to sin." Romans 9 discusses this very well. There is a difference between ordaining and causing. The will of God is ordained. The will of God is NOT caused. You probably have to wrestle through this difference as it seems I cannot get through to you on this point.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Bad choices are allowed by God's ordained will.

Where in the Bible does it say that God has an ordained will?
Does this will ONLY allow BAD choices by man,
and does it then FORBID good ones?

This is a strange doctrine by any standards...

And then it gets REALLY strange:

Because God has redeemed you, he gives the okay for you to sin

God does not green light sin for us because He has redeemed us, OK?

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios
 
Top Bottom