Justification - Part 2

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MoreCoffee

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Seems like you're just itching for the relativism Josiah brings up in another thread.
I shared what God said, not what your church says. Your church is wrong. It's certainly not the last time that will be said about the RC.
As for what I have said about faith and works, you completely botched it. What you claim is not at all what I said. After all these posts, you just simply miss it.

God said a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
 

MennoSota

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God said a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
Sure, and God shared, in Romans 5, that a person is justified by faith.
In Hebrews 11 we see what that faith looks like. In James 2 and in Romans 6 we see the reason for both people writing about faith. There were people saying they believed, but lived like pagans.
Read all of God's word, MC. It really helps, rather than picking a narrow interpretation from one section and claiming it as dogma.
 

MoreCoffee

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Sure, and God shared, in Romans 5, that a person is justified by faith.
In Hebrews 11 we see what that faith looks like. In James 2 and in Romans 6 we see the reason for both people writing about faith. There were people saying they believed, but lived like pagans.
Read all of God's word, MC. It really helps, rather than picking a narrow interpretation from one section and claiming it as dogma.

And God said a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

For me there's nothing surprising in any of the passages. They are all telling the whole world that faith alone doesn't save. As God said What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead.
 

MennoSota

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And God said a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

For me there's nothing surprising in any of the passages. They are all telling the whole world that faith alone doesn't save. As God said What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead.

Context:
There were people saying they believed, but they lived like pagans (like many in denominations today). An outward sign of faith is the works it produces. Paul said similar in Romans 6.
Neither Paul nor James say that works save a person. Salvation is 100% of God. By his grace and his grace alone. Thus, Paul is correct that faith justifies. We can know that a person has faith because faith produces good works (fruit of the Spirit) and, once again it justifies. Paul and James are saying the same thing about faith. Yet, you can't seem to grasp this.
 

MoreCoffee

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Context:
There were people saying they believed, but they lived like pagans (like many in denominations today). An outward sign of faith is the works it produces. Paul said similar in Romans 6.
Neither Paul nor James say that works save a person. Salvation is 100% of God. By his grace and his grace alone. Thus, Paul is correct that faith justifies. We can know that a person has faith because faith produces good works (fruit of the Spirit) and, once again it justifies. Paul and James are saying the same thing about faith. Yet, you can't seem to grasp this.

You just made that up as you went along!

The context is this:
James 2: 1 My brothers and sisters, if you truly believe in our glorifi ed Lord, Jesus Christ, you will not discriminate between persons. 2 Suppose a person enters the synagogue where you are assembled, dressed magnifi cently and wearing a gold ring; at the same time, a poor person enters dressed in rags. 3 If you focus your attention on the well-dressed and say, “Come and sit in the best seat,” while, to the poor one you say, “Stay standing, or else sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not, in fact, made a distinction between the two? Have you not judged, using a double standard? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters, did God not choose the poor of this world to receive the riches of faith, and to inherit the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 Yet, you despise them! Is it not the rich who are against you, and drag you to court? 7 Do they not insult the holy name of Christ by which you are called? 8 If you keep the law of the kingdom, according to Scripture: Love your neighbour as yourself, you do well; 9 but if you make distinctions be tween persons, you break the law, and are condemned by the same law. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, but fails, in one aspect, is guilty of breaking it all. 11 For he who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not kill. If, then, you do not commit adultery but you do commit murder, you have broken the law. 12 Therefore, speak and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 There will be justice, without mercy, for those who have not shown mercy, whereas, mercy has nothing to fear of judgement. 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead. 18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear! 20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. 26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​
 

Arsenios

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I see, so it is "Away with this talk of humility! I am right and God knows it!" :disgonbegood:

For myself, I just try to agree with God...

And yes, it does seem a tad brash to say:

"I am right, and God agrees with ME!"

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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You just made that up as you went along!

The context is this:
James 2: 1 My brothers and sisters, if you truly believe in our glorifi ed Lord, Jesus Christ, you will not discriminate between persons. 2 Suppose a person enters the synagogue where you are assembled, dressed magnifi cently and wearing a gold ring; at the same time, a poor person enters dressed in rags. 3 If you focus your attention on the well-dressed and say, “Come and sit in the best seat,” while, to the poor one you say, “Stay standing, or else sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not, in fact, made a distinction between the two? Have you not judged, using a double standard? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters, did God not choose the poor of this world to receive the riches of faith, and to inherit the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 Yet, you despise them! Is it not the rich who are against you, and drag you to court? 7 Do they not insult the holy name of Christ by which you are called? 8 If you keep the law of the kingdom, according to Scripture: Love your neighbour as yourself, you do well; 9 but if you make distinctions be tween persons, you break the law, and are condemned by the same law. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, but fails, in one aspect, is guilty of breaking it all. 11 For he who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not kill. If, then, you do not commit adultery but you do commit murder, you have broken the law. 12 Therefore, speak and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 There will be justice, without mercy, for those who have not shown mercy, whereas, mercy has nothing to fear of judgement. 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead. 18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear! 20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. 26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​
MC, I provided the text for James 2, Romans 5, Romans 6 and Hebrews 11 for you to see the connection. You are choosing to be obtuse rather than read all that God shares on faith and justification. This has been proven to you by more than just myself, yet you can't get out of your box. So be it. Live in that small box your church built for you.
 

MennoSota

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For myself, I just try to agree with God...

And yes, it does seem a tad brash to say:

"I am right, and God agrees with ME!"

Arsenios
You two are merely deflecting as a means of avoiding all the scripture on this subject.
 

Arsenios

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No it doesn't. I can get there via Egypt, Lebanon, Syria or the Mediterranean Sea without ever going to the Jordan.

Christ didn't - Here is the site:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg7_ZmhGFw0

You are just attempting to spiritualize something.

You are just trying to bob and float in the punch bowl...

The Bible never tells us that Jesus was baptized in the Jordan because of it being the entrance to the promised land.

Well, the dots do have to be connected...

Second, water baptism just gets you wet.

You are speaking from first hand experience?

I will not doubt you...

You are not speaking for the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles...

There is zero mystical event happening in water baptism.

Speaking for yourself, I can sure see what you mean...

We, on the other hand, are baptized into Christ, and even into His Death on the Cross...

The baptism that saves is the Spirit’s baptism (immersion) of us into Christ at the very moment God chooses us.

That is backwards from the Biblical account - Those Baptized into Christ were given the Holy Spirit after Baptism, except for the two Pentecosts, the first which established the Faith in Jerusalem, and the second which transferred it to the Gentiles through Cornelius...

Once again, you add a mystical element that isn't being taught in the Bible.

Being Baptized INTO Christ is just cat food, egg shells, and orange peels???

My Brother, it jes' ain't no ordinary thaang!

'Tis a VERY Holy Mystery...

Done by Christ Himself...

Through the hands of His Servants...

Sho'nuff!

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Christ didn't - Here is the site:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg7_ZmhGFw0



You are just trying to bob and float in the punch bowl...



Well, the dots do have to be connected...



You are speaking from first hand experience?

I will not doubt you...

You are not speaking for the Faith Christ discipled to His Apostles...



Speaking for yourself, I can sure see what you mean...

We, on the other hand, are baptized into Christ, and even into His Death on the Cross...



That is backwards from the Biblical account - Those Baptized into Christ were given the Holy Spirit after Baptism, except for the two Pentecosts, the first which established the Faith in Jerusalem, and the second which transferred it to the Gentiles through Cornelius...



Being Baptized INTO Christ is just cat food, egg shells, and orange peels???

My Brother, it jes' ain't no ordinary thaang!

'Tis a VERY Holy Mystery...

Done by Christ Himself...

Through the hands of His Servants...

Sho'nuff!

Arsenios

This is a different subject than justification.
First, there is a 1 % chance that anyone knows where Jesus was water baptized. Second, it doesn't matter where it was. It was just water and certainly the water isn't the same 2000 years later. Such a silly mysticism on your part.
Next, the only baptism that is effectual is the baptism of the Spirit. Water baptism is just an outward sign to others about what God has done inwardly.
The reference in Acts is of people who had John's baptism and it was imperative to show them that John's baptism didn't do anything effectual. The baptism of the Spirit was effectual.
Every chosen person of God is baptized by the Spirit into Christ. This is effectual. Water baptism is just a public declaration of what God has already done. There is nothing mystical about water baptism. Any claim that it does something effectual is a claim from church dogma, not scripture.
In short, once again your church traditions are dead wrong.
 

Arsenios

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Every chosen person of God is baptized by the Spirit into Christ.

Why do you disagree with God's Holy words?

Read this verse, and there are three more just like it,

And then please tell all of us:

"WHO baptizes US into Christ?"

Mark 1:8
I indeed have baptized you with water:
but He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.


WHO is it that is DOING Baptism WITH the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit does not Baptize, Menno...

Christ is the Baptizer of man into Christ...

He does it with the hands of His Servants...

It is hard to kick against God's Word...

I think you may be interpreting your own private experience with God as your Baptism into Christ...

Am I wrong?

Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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Why do you disagree with God's Holy words?

Read this verse, and there are three more just like it,

And then please tell all of us:

"WHO baptizes US into Christ?"

Mark 1:8
I indeed have baptized you with water:
but He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.


WHO is it that is DOING Baptism WITH the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit does not Baptize, Menno...

Christ is the Baptizer of man into Christ...

He does it with the hands of His Servants...

It is hard to kick against God's Word...

I think you may be interpreting your own private experience with God as your Baptism into Christ...

Am I wrong?

Arsenios

Yes, you are wrong.
God does the work of baptizing us into Christ. The passages on baptism are very often talking about the immersion (baptizo) of the chosen person into Christ. This is done by God, not by someone in a church, down by the creek.
I notice that there are some at the CH who cannot conceive of the Greek word baptizo outside of water. But, the word is often used in the scriptures without any connection to water whatsoever. If water were effectual, then every person baptized would die in the process as we would remain immersed in the water and never be removed. But we leave the water and go dry off. It is just a symbol of the effectual immersion done by the Spirit of God on our behalf in immersing us into Christ where we remain immersed for eternity and thus are justified.
You are stuck in your wrong teaching from your church dogma.
 

MoreCoffee

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MC, I provided the text for James 2, Romans 5, Romans 6 and Hebrews 11 for you to see the connection. You are choosing to be obtuse rather than read all that God shares on faith and justification. This has been proven to you by more than just myself, yet you can't get out of your box. So be it. Live in that small box your church built for you.

The thing that is constantly true of what you post is that you just proclaim "the context" and never bother to actually interact with the biblical text beyond proclaiming that you're right and that God agrees with you.
 

MennoSota

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The thing that is constantly true of what you post is that you just proclaim "the context" and never bother to actually interact with the biblical text beyond proclaiming that you're right and that God agrees with you.
I did with all four passages, but clearly you are stuck with just James 2 because seeing the whole destroys your little box you have created for justification.
 

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Arsenios

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Yes, you are wrong.
God does the work of baptizing us into Christ. The passages on baptism are very often talking about the immersion (baptizo) of the chosen person into Christ. This is done by God, not by someone in a church, down by the creek.
I notice that there are some at the CH who cannot conceive of the Greek word baptizo outside of water. But, the word is often used in the scriptures without any connection to water whatsoever. If water were effectual, then every person baptized would die in the process as we would remain immersed in the water and never be removed. But we leave the water and go dry off. It is just a symbol of the effectual immersion done by the Spirit of God on our behalf in immersing us into Christ where we remain immersed for eternity and thus are justified.
You are stuck in your wrong teaching from your church dogma.

So your baptism was a private spiritual event?

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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So your baptism was a private spiritual event?

Arsenios
God baptized me in Christ at the moment He adopted me. I then wanted to share the joy of God's work in me by declaring my union with Christ in a water baptism ceremony. This is how it takes place in scripture. God adopts, God's adopted children declare their union by being water baptized. atpollard did a great job of expressing this in a thread on baptism.
Arsenios you keep putting human works into the process and thus remove God's grace. You do it with justification and now you show that you do it with baptism.
I believe in grace alone. You don't. We will not agree because you add your big butts.
 

MoreCoffee

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God baptized me in Christ at the moment He adopted me. I then wanted to share the joy of God's work in me by declaring my union with Christ in a water baptism ceremony. This is how it takes place in scripture. God adopts, God's adopted children declare their union by being water baptized. atpollard did a great job of expressing this in a thread on baptism.
Arsenios you keep putting human works into the process and thus remove God's grace. You do it with justification and now you show that you do it with baptism.
I believe in grace alone. You don't. We will not agree because you add your big butts.

So ... the idea is

Free Salvation ... humans need not apply!

OK ... Got it

:groupheads:
 
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