Justification - Part 2

[MennoSota]

I still have yet to read a single example of what works is after I requested it many many times in this thread lol

Here I go again...
Works are what Paul describes as "Charity" which also means "love" like how Jesus Christ 'loved' you as a sinner -you should also 'love' others as sinners and as your brethren... Its the faith of Jesus our example and comforter.
Bring no extra coat but give the needy your coat as Jesus would have done for you... thats an example.
Who will notice these works? God will and the stranger who MAY just be an angel btw!!
Another example... bring no money with you, but offer your spiritual gifts to the needy... confused as to what gift? Charity... which again means 'love'... give them healing support and good news!
Encourage them and give the strength. If they are broken or suffer addiction share your testimony and invite them into your church so that they may see and believe and fall into Gods grace and mercy.
Let not your left and hand know what your right hand is doing. This means that it comes directly from the new man and his heart without hesitation for we do not these things for recognition but for the sake of Jesus name!
The heart is wicked, so of course our 'works' will not earn us extra merit or forgiveness... This NEW man puts on his ARMER of GOD daily with a JUSTIFIED heart and goes along encountering subjects and possibly angels!
God speed to this debate that is being run solely on division. We are ONE mind and ONE faith and God warns us of lengthy debate. There are NO good works in any lengthy debate and this thread is nothing new, it has been a tugawar for centuries.

This would all be correct except that God also tells us there are wolves among the sheep and the sheep must be wary of them.
There is a clear and sharp divide. Either God justifies us solely by the merit of Christ's death and resurrection or he justifies us by our own merit and works.
I stand on the side of being justified solely by the merit of Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:5-9

Yes! People must stop claiming justification by works (law) as Paul tells Titus.

 

[Andrew]

This would all be correct except that God also tells us there are wolves among the sheep and the sheep must be wary of them.
There is a clear and sharp divide. Either God justifies us solely by the merit of Christ's death and resurrection or he justifies us by our own merit and works.
I stand on the side of being justified solely by the merit of Christ.

As long as in your Justification you are not hindered in the good works God has in store for you Menno. Wolves have nothing to do with Gods good works in you.

 

[MennoSota]

As long as in your Justification you are not hindered in the good works God has in store for you Menno. Wolves have nothing to do with Gods good works in you.

I never said they did. I'm pointing out that some arguments are for the good of the flock.

 

[Andrew]

I never said they did. I'm pointing out that some arguments are for the good of the flock.

I see this flock as good, we all here quote the same phrases and believe the same things, we all agree, any disagreement is not present to the rest of us, you agree with us but you still separate yourself from us. I suggest in all respect that you snooze this thread for a week and ask God what you want to ask him, he will answer by giving new revelations and understanding.
Whatever you choose just remember that we are your brethren too Menno.

 

[MennoSota]

I see this flock as good, we all here quote the same phrases and believe the same things, we all agree, any disagreement is not present to the rest of us, you agree with us but you still separate yourself from us. I suggest in all respect that you snooze this thread for a week and ask God what you want to ask him, he will answer by giving new revelations and understanding.
Whatever you choose just remember that we are your brethren too Menno.

I trust that God will open the eyes of those he wishes to open and blind the eyes of those who cannot see. Paul wrote an entire letter to condemn those who preached justification by keeping the law rather than by grace. Your desire to appease bad doctrine is something I cannot do.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Paul and Peter both proclaimed in their letters that they were chosen by God. They also tell the recipients of the letters that they were chosen and elect. You must think that Paul and Peter as well as all those to whom they wrote were entirely pride filled and self-commending.
Faith is confident in things that are hoped for...
Hebrews 11
[1]Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

Saints Peter and Paul both had divine revelation that they were specifically chosen by God to be God's messengers.

Self-motivated-by-pride proclaims self-to-be-elect. That is not a revelation from God, it is arrogance.

 

[RichWh1]

When you are chosen by God you know you are so it would not be arrogance saying one is chosen or elect.

To say salvation comes through one and only one denomination is arrogance.




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[MoreCoffee]

When you are chosen by God you know you are so it would not be arrogance saying one is chosen or elect.

To say salvation comes through one and only one denomination is arrogance.




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Salvation comes from God in Jesus Christ the Lord. And the Catholic Church is not a denomination.

 

[RichWh1]

Salvation comes from God in Jesus Christ the Lord. And the Catholic Church is not a denomination.

I know what you claim and I also know what a denomination is. The Catholic Church claims to be pre-denomination not a denomination.
Claiming doesn’t make it so. Proving it does.

What is denomination? What is its meaning?

Denomination— a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices people from several different Christian denominations

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/di...ebsters Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

I know what you claim and I also know what a denomination is. The Catholic Church claims to be pre-denomination not a denomination.
Claiming doesn’t make it so. Proving it does.

What is denomination? What is its meaning?

Denomination— a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices people from several different Christian denominations

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denomination Websters


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Webster's hardly manages to work for the USA and fails for the English language so I never feel particularly bound by Webster's definitions and much less so when the term is theological. Denominations are a post Protestant thing. It took quite a while for the word to be coined. The Catholic Church came before the English language was invented and she has never been bound by English definitions that are so often biased by English notions and this is especially so in theology.

Online sources give the following definition for the formal use of the word.

Denomination: a name or designation.
synonyms: name, title, term, designation, epithet, label, tag, style, sobriquet, nickname, byname; informalhandle, moniker; formalappellation, cognomen; rareallonym, anonym, appellative
"they called the computer ‘XT’, a denomination that still stands today"​

 

[MennoSota]

Saints Peter and Paul both had divine revelation that they were specifically chosen by God to be God's messengers.

Self-motivated-by-pride proclaims self-to-be-elect. That is not a revelation from God, it is arrogance.

MC, they were both human like you and me. They both called the recipients of their letters "chosen" and "elect." Just as with Donald Trump, you show your judgmental prejudice with these claims. Your biblical support is zero.

 

[Arsenios]

Seems to me that Hebrews eleven is about heroes of The Faith...

Indeed it is about the heroes, but moreso, it is about the faith they embraced, and is so because it begins "este de pistis", which is how Greek proclaims: THIS IS FAITH, and the heroes of the Faith all are illustration of this power, indeed this Holy Power...

and the brief definition of faith in verse one is chiefly about what The Faith teaches regarding creation and the reality of God's power.

I have always understood that "brief definition" as the "essential definition" - Through all my befuddlement about HOW it is so, I simply wrote off my inability to grasp its meaning... for a long time, it simply remained hidden in plain sight, and doubtless does so to this day... That is how I read the entire Bible, btw... I approach the text as a Mystery to be revealed across time as one slowly matures in the Faith...

Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the assurance of what we hope for, being certain of what we cannot see. 2 Because of their faith, our ancestors were approved. 3 By faith, we understand that the stages of creation were disposed by God’s word, and what is visible came from what cannot be seen. ​

Here is the literal of 11:1

(This) is Faith:
Of the hoped for
(the) basis of deeds
Proof of (things) unseen

If we re-write the Greek into passable English, it might be this:

Faith is the basis of the deeds we do for things hoped for...
It is the proof of things unseen.

You see faith is the proof of the reality not yet seen...

It is even secularly true...

It is how the airplane was invented...

How houses are built...

How breakfast is made...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

MC, they were both human like you and me.

My Brother, I LOVE your optimism!!
HOWEVER............
May I perhaps be permitted to ADD to your illuminating observation:

They were both singularly human UNLIKE you and me!

They both called the recipients of their letters "chosen" and "elect."

Indeed they did, and yet somehow neither one called himself chosen and elect...

Just as with Donald Trump, you show your judgmental prejudice with these claims. Your biblical support is zero.

Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

I mean, what's with the Donald Trump thaaang??

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I know what you claim and I also know what a denomination is. The Catholic Church claims to be pre-denomination not a denomination.
Claiming doesn’t make it so. Proving it does.

What is denomination? What is its meaning?

Denomination— a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices people from several different Christian denominations

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/di...e rulership of this fallen world... Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

It means something named...

Something nominated...

The NAME of the Faith of Christ is the NAME "CHRISTianity"...

So by your standards, Christianity is a denomination...

Just like Calvinism is a denomination...

Just like Lutheranism is a denomination...

Whatever name one gives to their organization that separates is from another organization...

Denominalization of Christianity is one big reason for its current decline...

Demons rejoice when they see another denomination arise...

They rejoice when those who have divided themselves
accuse those from whom they have divided themselves
as just being another division...

The Body of Christ is One Body...
It has One Head...
One Faith...
One Baptism...
One Creed...

And indeed, it is pre-denominational...
Unless you want to call Christianity a Denomination...
And in this latter, I would agree...
We are Christ's, and belong to NO other...

We are divided from the rulereship of this fallen world...

Arsenios

We are Christs, not the Catholic church or any other denomination you care to name. I do not disagree with being Christs, however, I do disagree that we all have to come under the Catholic church in order to be His.

 

[Josiah]

It means something named...

Something nominated...

The NAME of the Faith of Christ is the NAME "CHRISTianity"...

So by your standards, Christianity is a denomination...

Just like Calvinism is a denomination...

Just like Lutheranism is a denomination...

Whatever name one gives to their organization that separates is from another organization...

Denominalization of Christianity is one big reason for its current decline...

Demons rejoice when they see another denomination arise...

The Body of Christ is One Body...
It has One Head...
One Faith...
One Baptism...
One Creed...

And indeed, it is pre-denominational...
Unless you want to call Christianity a Denomination...


We are divided from the rulereship of this fallen world...

Arsenios

This thread is not about denominations.


A discussion of church, congregation and denomination is here: http://christianityhaven.com/showth...omination-Faith-Community&p=135031#post135031


THIS discussion is about Justification.




.

 

[Josiah]

And the evidence that faith is then is works...

Yup. Thus faith must be in place for anything to be a "work" in the spiritual sense. So when you insist that Repentance is a "good work" then you insist that faith must be in place as repentance happens. And you thus are embracing the Protestant view. Repentance is not the CAUSE, the REASON why God THEREFORE becomes active, REWARDS that with the payoff of faith/life/Holy Spirit/Justification. You are NOW corrrect: what you insist on is impossible and unbiblical.... NO WORK of man brings about faith/life/Holy Spirit/Justification....... such is the revealing of faith. Welcome (eventually) to the Protestant view, anathematized by the Roman Church for 500 years now. See post 213.

 

[MennoSota]

My Brother, I LOVE your optimism!!
HOWEVER............
May I perhaps be permitted to ADD to your illuminating observation:

They were both singularly human UNLIKE you and me!



Indeed they did, and yet somehow neither one called himself chosen and elect...



Overcoming obsession is a good thing...

I mean, what's with the Donald Trump thaaang??

Arsenios

Peter was a broken denier of Messiah whom God chose anyway.
Paul was a terrorist murderer whom God chose anyway.
They were both as corrupt and evil as any other human. In fact, Paul calls himself the chief of all sinners.
Arsenios, you've created a delusional image of the Apostles that is never presented that way in scripture.
God used Peter and Paul as chosen vessels with unique roles. God uses all his adopted children as chosen vessels with unique roles. All of God's chosen and adopted children stand on equal ground as reprobate, corrupt sinners justified only by the blood of Jesus as atonement for our sins.
Both Peter and Paul called themselves chosen. Read the Bible. They both call themselves chosen. You are demonstrably wrong.
MC knows what I am referring to with the Trump comment. I was directly addressing his prejudice.

 

[MennoSota]

It means something named...

Something nominated...

The NAME of the Faith of Christ is the NAME "CHRISTianity"...

So by your standards, Christianity is a denomination...

Just like Calvinism is a denomination...

Just like Lutheranism is a denomination...

Whatever name one gives to their organization that separates is from another organization...

Denominalization of Christianity is one big reason for its current decline...

Demons rejoice when they see another denomination arise...

They rejoice when those who have divided themselves
accuse those from whom they have divided themselves
as just being another division...

The Body of Christ is One Body...
It has One Head...
One Faith...
One Baptism...
One Creed...

And indeed, it is pre-denominational...
Unless you want to call Christianity a Denomination...
And in this latter, I would agree...
We are Christ's, and belong to NO other...

We are divided from the rulereship of this fallen world...

Arsenios

Wait, What!?
Calvinism is a denomination? Since when?
Christianity is not some commodity that increases or declines based upon marketing and advertisement schemes. Christianity is growing exactly as God has ordained. God's chosen, elect and adopted children are daily being brought into the Kingdom, exactly as God has ordained.
In China the church is growing faster than any other time in history. Faster than the time of the Apostles.
Arsenios, you don't know what you are talking about. Your dogma blinds you.