Justification - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

And yet it is still talking about faith in the passage I quoted...and insists that it is certain. That can't be explained away that it really doesn't mean what it says. It says it is certain.

All that is needed is a clear head and careful reading. The section is about The Faith that was once for all time delivered to the saints. What more need be said. The Faith is the content of God's revelation, it is certain. But human subjective claims of faith are quite a different matter. The former is true the latter is subjective and possibly untrue.

 

[psalms 91]

The error is in claiming them for yourself. Do you remember Hagar? How she claimed the promises for her son Ishmael and herself as his mother and taught her son to mock Sarai and when Sarai bore Isaac and became Sarah Ishmael and his mother were driven out of the camp (but God had mercy on them) because Ishmael was not heir according to the promise but Isaac was. It is God who gives not people who claim. God gave Abram and Sarai a son and they became Abraham and Sarah and their son was the promised son, Isaac. Of course this story is about Jesus because the heir according to the promise is in fact Jesus Christ. NO man can claim the promises, they are yes and amen in Jesus Christ and unless the man is in Christ he does not receive the promises no matter how loudly he self proclaims his election.

I agree with this it is always according to Gods will and the trick is to be in Gods will and to pray in accordance with it

 

[MennoSota]

The error is in claiming them for yourself. Do you remember Hagar? How she claimed the promises for her son Ishmael and herself as his mother and taught her son to mock Sarai and when Sarai bore Isaac and became Sarah Ishmael and his mother were driven out of the camp (but God had mercy on them) because Ishmael was not heir according to the promise but Isaac was. It is God who gives not people who claim. God gave Abram and Sarai a son and they became Abraham and Sarah and their son was the promised son, Isaac. Of course this story is about Jesus because the heir according to the promise is in fact Jesus Christ. NO man can claim the promises, they are yes and amen in Jesus Christ and unless the man is in Christ he does not receive the promises no matter how loudly he self proclaims his election.

Apostle Paul and Apostle Peter must have been the most conceited people you would ever meet by your judgment.
I am so very glad that God determines my fate and not you.
Paul tells us that we are not children of Hagar, but we are children of the promise. Will we believe it or not? Or must we fall under your condemnation?
Galatians 4:24-31
[24]These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.
[25]And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law.
[26]But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.
[27]As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O*childless woman, *** you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, *** you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children *** than the woman who lives with her husband!”
[28]And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac.
[29]But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.
[30]But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
[31]So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman.

 

[MennoSota]

It becomes increasingly clear that there are some in this thread who preach as Judaisers. Let their message be anathema.
Galatians 5:1-10
[1]So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
[2]Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you.
[3]I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses.
[4]For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
[5]But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us.
[6]For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love.
[7]You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth?
[8]It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom.
[9]This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough!
[10]I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A Calvinist of all people ought to agree that it is God who gives and not man who claims. But self-proclaimed-election is perhaps too precious for self-respect (euphemistic phrase for pride) to surrender.

 

[Arsenios]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

And the evidence that faith is then is works...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

And the evidence that faith is then is works...

Arsenios

Your works can be seen. The verse does not say what you just wrote (remember it says evidence of things not seen). The things we hope for are the things God promised. Faith expresses certainty (as in what the Catholic Catechism states...does yours?). The certainty is found in the Savior, not our works.

 

[Arsenios]

Now faith is
the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

Your works can be seen.

Yes - Evidence is visible...
The term for evidence is pragmata, as in pragmatic...
That which is done or enacted or worked...
Strong

The verse does not say what you just wrote
(remember it says evidence of things not seen).

So is the evidence then according to you NOT seen???

The things we hope for are the things God promised.

OK...

Faith expresses certainty (as in what the Catholic Catechism states...does yours?).

I don't think so... We don't have big catechisms on line - Different teachers use different ones -

But no, personal faith can come and go, and sometimes God will withdraw it so we can see what we have refined from the ore, if anything... If it all burns up, we go back and take another tack... Or not...

The certainty is found in the Savior, not our works.

God is certain, and we are not... Works for me!

Forgiveness is guaranteed to repentance...
Tomorrow is not guaranteed to procrastination (of repentance)

estin de pistiv elpizomenwn upostasiv pragmatwn elegxov ou blepomenwn

I have struggled with this sentence for many years...
It is a definition, a formal definition, no question...

(This) is Faith:
Of the hoped for
(the) basis of deeds
Proof of (things) unseen

The above is but my latest effort...
It is very formulaic...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Seems to me that Hebrews eleven is about heroes of The Faith and the brief definition of faith in verse one is chiefly about what The Faith teaches regarding creation and the reality of God's power.

Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the assurance of what we hope for, being certain of what we cannot see. 2 Because of their faith, our ancestors were approved. 3 By faith, we understand that the stages of creation were disposed by God’s word, and what is visible came from what cannot be seen. ​

 

[RichWh1]

And the evidence that faith is then is works...

Arsenios

Correct as Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:10 Works are the result of faith leading to salvation.

Works is the evidence of faith


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[Andrew]

I still have yet to read a single example of what works is after I requested it many many times in this thread lol

Here I go again...
Works are what Paul describes as "Charity" which also means "love" like how Jesus Christ 'loved' you as a sinner -you should also 'love' others as sinners and as your brethren... Its the faith of Jesus our example and comforter.
Bring no extra coat but give the needy your coat as Jesus would have done for you... thats an example.
Who will notice these works? God will and the stranger who MAY just be an angel btw!!
Another example... bring no money with you, but offer your spiritual gifts to the needy... confused as to what gift? Charity... which again means 'love'... give them healing support and good news!
Encourage them and give the strength. If they are broken or suffer addiction share your testimony and invite them into your church so that they may see and believe and fall into Gods grace and mercy.
Let not your left and hand know what your right hand is doing. This means that it comes directly from the new man and his heart without hesitation for we do not these things for recognition but for the sake of Jesus name!
The heart is wicked, so of course our 'works' will not earn us extra merit or forgiveness... This NEW man puts on his ARMER of GOD daily with a JUSTIFIED heart and goes along encountering subjects and possibly angels!
God speed to this debate that is being run solely on division. We are ONE mind and ONE faith and God warns us of lengthy debate. There are NO good works in any lengthy debate and this thread is nothing new, it has been a tugawar for centuries.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I still have yet to read a single example of what works is after I requested it many many times in this thread lol

Here I go again...
Works are what Paul describes as "Charity" which also means "love" like how Jesus Christ 'loved' you as a sinner -you should also 'love' others as sinners and as your brethren... Its the faith of Jesus our example and comforter.
Bring no extra coat but give the needy your coat as Jesus would have done for you... thats an example.
Who will notice these works? God will and the stranger who MAY just be an angel btw!!
Another example... bring no money with you, but offer your spiritual gifts to the needy... confused as to what gift? Charity... which again means 'love'... give them healing support and good news!
Encourage them and give the strength. If they are broken or suffer addiction share your testimony and invite them into your church so that they may see and believe and fall into Gods grace and mercy.
Let not your left and hand know what your right hand is doing. This means that it comes directly from the new man and his heart without hesitation for we do not these things for recognition but for the sake of Jesus name!
The heart is wicked, so of course our 'works' will not earn us extra merit or forgiveness... This NEW man puts on his ARMER of GOD daily with a JUSTIFIED heart and goes along encountering subjects and possibly angels!
God speed to this debate that is being run solely on division. We are ONE mind and ONE faith and God warns us of lengthy debate. There are NO good works in any lengthy debate and this thread is nothing new, it has been a tugawar for centuries.

Jesus said that the work of God is to believe in Jesus Christ. Paul says it is to do the good things that God prepared for the faithful to do. The good things are to preach the gospel, repent of one's sins and turn to what is just and right and pure, and to walk in the commandments of God - specifically, to love one's neighbour as one's self and to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength.

 

[RichWh1]

Here is a passage dealing with what good works are.

Ephesians 4
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Just one example





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[Andrew]

Jesus said that the work of God is to believe in Jesus Christ. Paul says it is to do the good things that God prepared for the faithful to do. The good things are to preach the gospel, repent of one's sins and turn to what is just and right and pure, and to walk in the commandments of God - specifically, to love one's neighbour as one's self and to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Amen that's the truth! Jesus gave us plenty of examples and is scriptural fact that those you stated are what God wants and not at all what any man can do unless through Christ, whom which all things are possible.
Repent! Believe! Be!
Walk that straight narrow path and be a blessing to those you come across and bless them!
I simply cannot fathom how one claiming to be a Christian can choke and not declare that the Holy Spirit is in them and God is Mighty and the Lord Jesus is Savior!
We will still sin but God gives us Conviction and Mercy, we are now humble in our imperfections and our sins forgiven but it is in our good works for God alone to witness and perhaps through Gods agents (Angels) to witness but by fulfilling his will in 'you' we freely give to others as we were freely given for ALL of it IS Gods work!!!

 

[Andrew]

Here is a passage dealing with what good works are.

Ephesians 4
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Just one example





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Amen Amen!! Thank you RichWh1!

 

[MennoSota]

A Calvinist of all people ought to agree that it is God who gives and not man who claims. But self-proclaimed-election is perhaps too precious for self-respect (euphemistic phrase for pride) to surrender.

Paul and Peter both proclaimed in their letters that they were chosen by God. They also tell the recipients of the letters that they were chosen and elect. You must think that Paul and Peter as well as all those to whom they wrote were entirely pride filled and self-commending.
Faith is confident in things that are hoped for...
Hebrews 11
[1]Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

 

[MennoSota]

But no, personal faith can come and go,

If it is personal, then it is not from God, but it is a selfish and poor imitation. It is false.

and sometimes God will withdraw it so we can see what we have refined from the ore, if anything... If it all burns up, we go back and take another tack... Or not...

You are not biblically correct. You have made this up from the figment of your imagination.

 

[Albion]

You have made this up from the figment of your imagination.

Bearing false witness is also a sin.

 

[Andrew]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:5-9

 

[MennoSota]

Bearing false witness is also a sin.

I'm witnessing to the truth of the gospel, that by grace we are saved, given faith and justified. Those who teach a gospel of works have rejected the gospel of God's grace. That is truth, not a false witness.