Reasonable truth and simple understanding

[Josiah]

In the first post for this thread I was thinking that I have met many people who look for simplicity and a faith that is reasonable but the odd thing is that in seeking those things and rejecting the things I mentioned in the first post one is left with reasonable and simple faith as the authority created by one's self and given such great authority that holy mother church is rejected and self replaces her and one's own reason becomes supreme authority and so what is condemned in others - authoritative interpretation and and so on - is what self promotes self to be... sacraments, authoritative interpretation all is taken into self as final and absolute master of self's own religion.

I fully agree.

It's the primary reason why I left your denomination - the RCC. It did and does just as you rebuke.

You raise the biggest problem with the RC Denomination....


I'm uncomfortable with the EXTREME individualism and denominationalism of the Roman Catholic denomination..... The foundational insistence of it itself exclusively for it itself individually that SELF is the ONLY authoritative and unaccountable interpreter of Scripture, and whatever IT ITSELF alone as a denomination says it "MEANS" is thus what it does - regardless of the words the Holy Spirit put on the page - and that God Himself must agree with the singular RC Denomination or God would be wrong (and that's unthinkable).


As a Protestant, I beleive that the church is US - the one, holy, catholic community of saints - the whole body of those given the Gift of saving faith in Christ - ONE body - of all believers spread out over all the centuries and continents. It includes Martin Luther and Pope Francis, it includes you and me. It is not primary SELF ALONE (whether "self" is a person, congregation, denomination or cult - whether "self" is the RCC speaking of itself or the LDS speaking of itself or the JW speaking of itself). I believe that God leads US (not just self - again "self" may be a given person, denomination, etc.... the RCC or LDS or LCMS)... and promises to teach US (not just one self - even if that self is the RCC or LDS or LCMS).. that God gave His Scriptures to US (not just to the LDS or Jim Jones or Pope Francis).... and that the task of interpreting and applying belongs to US. Which is why Lutherans study history, embrace the Creeds, hold in esteem the genuine Councils...).


I reject the OBSESSION the the RCC has with it ITSELF individually, the OBSESSION it has with individualism (itself), the OBSESSION it has with lording it over others as the Gentiles do, the OBSESSION it has with insisting it itself ALONE is the infallible, authoritative, unaccountable Authority, THE singular, individual Mouth of God. Your denomination has MUCH that is good, but the issue you raise is it's downfall - and the reason many of us 30 million in the USA have left it. It needs to get over itself. It needs to replace this OBSESSION with power, individualism, denomination, egoism.... and embrace some humility, accountability, community. My Greek Orthodox friend is stronger in her rebuke of this aspect of your denomination but largely agrees and points out this didn't start in the 16th century, it's in the DNA of your denomination and resulted in the same problem for many, many centuries before Luther was born.



.

say "I was mistaken"?

The enormous ego of the RCC itself excludes it itself individually from even the theoretical possibility that it itself CAN be wrong (at least in official dogma). It does it very simply: It itself just declares it itself exclusively to be infallible and unaccountable. It effectively deifies itself. It itself simply declares that (in matters of formal doctrine) it itself is infallible, indeed the very Mouth of God, when IT ITSELF exclusively as a denomination speaks, God Himself is speaking (thus, God must agree with the RCC to prevent God from being wrong), so since it itself cannot err, then it itself individually cannot be wrong when it insists that it itself cannot be wrong so it itself cannot be wrong. Problem solved. (Catholics constantly wonder: Why can't non-Catholics understand this????). But only by either 1) Incredible egoism and individualism and quest to lord it over others as the Gentiles do or 2) Fear, the fear of being held accountable. The RCC has much that is good, but you highlight and focus on its downfall.



- Josiah




.

 

[Arsenios]

It has long been of interest to me how EO people take pains to say that the RCC is wrong on a host of issues. UNLESS, that is, a Protestant might chance to say it.

In that case, the RCs have no more enthusiastic advocates than their schismatic (and theologically malleable) cousins. :lol:

My Brother -

When a person is wounded,
beating their wounds with staves...
does not bring healing...

But you know that already!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I would agree that the true church (body of believers from all denoms), that is the case but every denomination has error, all of them

The question then is, where can the Truth be found and where is it consistently discipled?

The Apostolic Churches are where one needs to start...

Look to their agreement with each other in Faith and Practice...

Even those not in Communion with one another...

Then just take what is common to all...

And you will know what you are looking for in a Church...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The wonderful thing about papal infallibility is that it attaches to statements of dogma and rulings about praxis but not to persons. No pope is infallible in his person and no pope ever has been infallible in his person. Thus we can say that the Dogma of the incarnation is infallible truth without implying that any person involved in its formal formulation was infallible in his person. No pope, no apostle, no prophet, no seer nor any other gifted person was made by God infallible in their person. God alone is infallible in person. The other wonderful thing about infallibility is that it attaches only to some statements and not to all. Many popes have held odd views and a few have been very immoral persons and no one thinks well of them as persons. The current pope, Francis (the first of that name thus far), is no doubt a decent man with much compassion in his heart and his homilies are often very inspiring and many think well of his person but no one can rightly think that every word that he writes or speaks is infallible truth. The Catholic Church has never proclaimed a dogma of infallibility that teaches every word from a pope is infallible. And if any individual Catholic says to you that the pope is infallible in his person and that everything he says is infallible truth then that Catholic is wrong. And I must say, for the record, it is always the Church that is infallible and the pope is infallible when he speaks for and to the Church as the pastor of all God's people; specifically, when the pope speaks ex cathedra (from the seat of saint Peter with all his authority) he speaks infallibly. It is rare for any pope to speak ex cathedra during his reign. The most common ex cathedra speech from any pope is the proclamation of a person as a canonical saint - I think that is considered an ex cathedra statement, it usually takes a form that fits.

You and I could sort this Communion issue out in short order!

So are you really saying that the Roman Catholic Pope can personally be a heretic,
but still will not be speaking for the Church?

Heck, Orthodoxy has had a LOT of heretical Patriarchs!

If you like being banned, we could go visit Catholic Answers Forum together...

We MIGHT last 18 seconds!!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Peter and all the Apostles had their counsel in Jerusalem. (Drop mic...walk off stage...)

The Church started in Jerusalem...

Great prom-queen mike-drop exit stage left though!

Can I borrow that one from you??

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The Church started in Jerusalem...

Great prom-queen mike-drop exit stage left though!

Can I borrow that one from you??

Arsenios

It's unpatented...freeware...

 

[Arsenios]

It's unpatented...freeware...

You're the Man!

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

You and I could sort this Communion issue out in short order!

So are you really saying that the Roman Catholic Pope can personally be a heretic,
but still will not be speaking for the Church?

Heck, Orthodoxy has had a LOT of heretical Patriarchs!

If you like being banned, we could go visit Catholic Answers Forum together...

We MIGHT last 18 seconds!!

Arsenios

I've been a registered member of CA forums for many years. I've been around a long time arty2:

 

[Arsenios]

I've been a registered member of CA forums for many years. I've been around a long time arty2:

Were you one of those who justified the Filioque on the grounds that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son into Creation?

THAT is almost Orthodox...

I have been banned from there...

We had an Orthodox contingent - We all got banned...

Then I encountered one of the big contributors locally doing some work for her and her husband...
And she saw first-hand who I was and how I presented...
She deftly avoided confrontation, as did I...
And we parted friends...
Her with a new appreciation for the Orthodox Faith...
And I with an appreciation for the fact that converting Uniates on CAF is NOT what the donors are paying for...

Lord have Mercy!

Is THAT view of yours, that the Pope can personally be a heretic, yet still be the carrier of Papal Infallibility, now a topic for discussion on CAF? Oh to be a fly on THAT wall! But God knows, they have to do something... I always thought that if the Pope announced ex-Cathedra that Papal Infallibility is False, then the RCC would have a major crisis...

Papal personal heresy is now divided from him and is not a part of Papal Infallability?

All I can say is "Wow!"

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I've been a registered member of CA forums for many years.
I've been around a long time arty2:

Have you ever said there that the Pope can be a Heretic without violating Papal Infallability?

And you have not been ejected summarily?

Maybe I can visit without registering...

The issue is real...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Were you one of those who justified the Filioque on the grounds that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son into Creation?

THAT is almost Orthodox...

I have been banned from there...

We had an Orthodox contingent - We all got banned...

Then I encountered one of the big contributors locally doing some work for her and her husband...
And she saw first-hand who I was and how I presented...
She deftly avoided confrontation, as did I...
And we parted friends...
Her with a new appreciation for the Orthodox Faith...
And I with an appreciation for the fact that converting Uniates on CAF is NOT what the donors are paying for...

Lord have Mercy!

Is THAT view of yours, that the Pope can personally be a heretic, yet still be the carrier of Papal Infallibility, now a topic for discussion on CAF? Oh to be a fly on THAT wall! But God knows, they have to do something... I always thought that if the Pope announced ex-Cathedra that Papal Infallibility is False, then the RCC would have a major crisis...

Papal personal heresy is now divided from him and is not a part of Papal Infallability?

All I can say is "Wow!"

I mean, they are getting arm-twisted into Orthodoxy...

And you slide into it like a warm glove!

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Have you ever said there that the Pope can be a Heretic without violating Papal Infallability?

And you have not been ejected summarily?

Maybe I can visit without registering...

The issue is real...

Arsenios

Brother, the pope can be a killer and a thief and an adulterer without impinging negatively on papal infallibility because murder, adultery, and theft are not ex cathedra teaching on doctrine and morals. A pope can believe in odd things like geocentrism, the existence of a phoenix, and confused as well as confusing doctrine about the nature of the incarnation without thereby impinging negatively on papal infallibility, though it is disputed if any pope ever taught heresy it seems obvious that some popes believed odd things yet as long as their oddness was not foisted upon the faithful as infallible teaching it would not negatively impinge upon papal infallibility because papal infallibility attaches only to ex cathedra teaching. And yes, I have stated these things in CA Forums at various times without any negative consequences because even in CA Forums (a place that I do not recommend to many people) the truth is the truth and all but a few bigots (who thankfully are not in power) accept what is true and obviously true from the Catholic Church's own documents.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Were you one of those who justified the Filioque on the grounds that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son into Creation?

THAT is almost Orthodox...

I have been banned from there...

We had an Orthodox contingent - We all got banned...

Then I encountered one of the big contributors locally doing some work for her and her husband...
And she saw first-hand who I was and how I presented...
She deftly avoided confrontation, as did I...
And we parted friends...
Her with a new appreciation for the Orthodox Faith...
And I with an appreciation for the fact that converting Uniates on CAF is NOT what the donors are paying for...

Lord have Mercy!

Is THAT view of yours, that the Pope can personally be a heretic, yet still be the carrier of Papal Infallibility, now a topic for discussion on CAF? Oh to be a fly on THAT wall! But God knows, they have to do something... I always thought that if the Pope announced ex-Cathedra that Papal Infallibility is False, then the RCC would have a major crisis...

Papal personal heresy is now divided from him and is not a part of Papal Infallability?

All I can say is "Wow!"

Arsenios

You are right to think that seeking to convert Catholics who follow the rites from the east to Orthodox Church members is not what CA Forum donors are paying for and I am not very surprised that some would be upset if that was your intention.

By the way, the Catholic council of Florence proposed the formula that filioque be understood as "proceeds from the Father through the Son". The word is Latin and does not exactly match some meanings that the English "and the Son" can imply. Latin is not English and it is not Greek either so filioque is very likely misunderstood in some Greek speaking circles.

 

[pinacled]

You have a bible, 66 books for many, more for others, less for a few.

You read it, interpret it, form views about what is true and what is not.

You may reject priests, and embrace simple title-less leadership where all are brethren (sisters too). Simple worship without images and without numerous rites and ceremonies.

You look for simple truths that can be clearly communicated and are suspicious of other men taking authority and teaching as if their teaching had superior status. In the end you answer according to your own conscience.


Do you need the comfort of holy mother church?

Probably you think not.

Is this you?

What is the comfort of a holy mother church exactly.?
And what is her name?

 

[pinacled]

Peter and all the Apostles had their counsel in Jerusalem. (Drop mic...walk off stage...)

Truth,
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

 

[Arsenios]

You are right - seeking to convert Catholics who follow the rites from the east to Orthodox Church members is not what CA Forum donors are paying for and I am not very surprised that some would be upset if that was your intention.

Just trying to be real...

It was our success that brought the expulsion - I was something of a late-comer... The Eastern Rite folks were saying that Eastern Rite Catholics had the identical theology of the EOC with the only difference being Communion with Rome... So we went from there to expulsion, as we taught them the theology of the EOC... The Moderator was fired for letting the discussion go on and on - Being regarded as a betrayer of the RCC... He did become Orthodox, it is true... So the firing was doubtless justified, mind you...

And the whole threads were pulled...

Those were wild times! You are right to not recommend CAF to many - The counter-arguments to the EOC posters were raucos and wild and vicious... The EOC posters do much the same on EOC sites... Opposing views are seen as trolls... And ugly being dumped on them is simply their just desserts...

I like how we have allied here - Wouldn't trade it fer nuttin'!!

Arsenios

 

[pinacled]

Here is what Adonai says:
“For Mo’av’s three crimes,
no, four — I will not reverse it —
because he burned the bones of the king of Edom,
turning them into lime;
2 I will send fire on Mo’av,
and it will consume the palaces of K’riot.
Mo’av will die with turmoil and shouting,
along with the sound of the shofar.
3 I will cut off the judge from among them
and kill all his princes with him,” says Adonai.

“How blessed are the poor in spirit!
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
“How blessed are those who mourn!
for they will be comforted.
“How blessed are the meek!
for they will inherit the Land!



4 Here is what Adonai says:
“For Y’hudah’s three crimes,
no, four — I will not reverse it —
because they rejected Adonai’s Torah
and haven’t observed his laws,
and their lies caused them to fall into error
and live the way their ancestors did;
5 I will send fire on Y’hudah,
and it will consume the palaces of Yerushalayim.

“How blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness!
for they will be filled.
“How blessed are those who show mercy!
for they will be shown mercy.
“How blessed are the pure in heart!
for they will see God.



6 Here is what Adonai says:
“For Isra’el’s three crimes,
no, four — I will not reverse it —
because they sell the upright for silver
and the poor for a pair of shoes,
7 grinding the heads of the poor in the dust
and pushing the lowly out of the way;
father and son sleep with the same girl,
profaning my holy name;
8 lying down beside any altar
on garments taken in pledge;
drinking wine in the house of their God
bought with fines they imposed.
9 “I destroyed the Emori before them;
though tall as cedars and strong as oaks,
I destroyed their fruit above
and their root below.
10 More than that, I brought you up from Egypt,
led you forty years in the desert,
so that you could have the Emori’s land.
11 I raised up some of your sons to be prophets,
other young men of yours to be n’zirim.
People of Isra’el!

“How blessed are those who make peace!
for they will be called sons of God.
“How blessed are those who are persecuted
because they pursue righteousness!
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
“How blessed you are when people insult you and persecute you and tell all kinds of vicious lies about you because you follow me! 12 Rejoice, be glad, because your reward in heaven is great — they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.



Isn’t that true?” asks Adonai.
12 But you gave the n’zirim wine to drink
and ordered the prophets, ‘Don’t prophesy!’
13 “Enough! I will make all this crush you,
just as a cart overloaded with grain
crushes what’s under it.
14 Even the swift won’t be able to flee;
the strong won’t be able to use their strength,
the warriors won’t save themselves.
15 Archers won’t be able to stand,
the fastest runners won’t save themselves,
those on horses won’t save themselves.
16 On that day even the bravest warriors
will throw off their weapons and flee,” says Adonai.

 

[pinacled]

Here is what Adonai says:
“For Mo’av’s three crimes,
no, four — I will not reverse it —
because he burned the bones of the king of Edom,
turning them into lime;
2 I will send fire on Mo’av,
and it will consume the palaces of K’riot.
Mo’av will die with turmoil and shouting,
along with the sound of the shofar.
3 I will cut off the judge from among them
and kill all his princes with him,” says Adonai.

“How blessed are the poor in spirit!
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
“How blessed are those who mourn!
for they will be comforted.
“How blessed are the meek!
for they will inherit the Land!



4 Here is what Adonai says:
“For Y’hudah’s three crimes,
no, four — I will not reverse it —
because they rejected Adonai’s Torah
and haven’t observed his laws,
and their lies caused them to fall into error
and live the way their ancestors did;
5 I will send fire on Y’hudah,
and it will consume the palaces of Yerushalayim.

“How blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness!
for they will be filled.
“How blessed are those who show mercy!
for they will be shown mercy.
“How blessed are the pure in heart!
for they will see God.



6 Here is what Adonai says:
“For Isra’el’s three crimes,
no, four — I will not reverse it —
because they sell the upright for silver
and the poor for a pair of shoes,
7 grinding the heads of the poor in the dust
and pushing the lowly out of the way;
father and son sleep with the same girl,
profaning my holy name;
8 lying down beside any altar
on garments taken in pledge;
drinking wine in the house of their God
bought with fines they imposed.
9 “I destroyed the Emori before them;
though tall as cedars and strong as oaks,
I destroyed their fruit above
and their root below.
10 More than that, I brought you up from Egypt,
led you forty years in the desert,
so that you could have the Emori’s land.
11 I raised up some of your sons to be prophets,
other young men of yours to be n’zirim.
People of Isra’el!

“How blessed are those who make peace!
for they will be called sons of God.
“How blessed are those who are persecuted
because they pursue righteousness!
for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
“How blessed you are when people insult you and persecute you and tell all kinds of vicious lies about you because you follow me! 12 Rejoice, be glad, because your reward in heaven is great — they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.



Isn’t that true?” asks Adonai.
12 But you gave the n’zirim wine to drink
and ordered the prophets, ‘Don’t prophesy!’
13 “Enough! I will make all this crush you,
just as a cart overloaded with grain
crushes what’s under it.
14 Even the swift won’t be able to flee;
the strong won’t be able to use their strength,
the warriors won’t save themselves.
15 Archers won’t be able to stand,
the fastest runners won’t save themselves,
those on horses won’t save themselves.
16 On that day even the bravest warriors
will throw off their weapons and flee,” says Adonai.

bamidar [
14 {}18
'The Lord is slow to anger and abundantly kind, forgiving iniquity and transgression, Who cleanses [some] and does not cleanse [others], Who visits the iniquities of parents on children, even to the third and fourth generations.' יחיְהֹוָ֗ה אֶ֤רֶךְ אַפַּ֨יִם֙ וְרַב־חֶ֔סֶד נֹשֵׂ֥א עָוֹ֖ן וָפָ֑שַׁע וְנַקֵּה֙ לֹ֣א יְנַקֶּ֔ה פֹּקֵ֞ד עֲוֹ֤ן אָבוֹת֙ עַל־בָּנִ֔ים עַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֖ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִֽים:

Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers) for In him was life,
and the life was the light of mankind.

devarim [
5 {}9
You shall not prostrate yourself before them, nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me. טלֹֽא־תִשְׁתַּֽחֲוֶ֥ה לָהֶ֖ם וְלֹ֥א תָֽעָבְדֵ֑ם כִּ֣י אָֽנֹכִ֞י יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֨יךָ֙ אֵ֣ל קַנָּ֔א פֹּ֠קֵ֠ד עֲו*ֹ֨ן אָב֧וֹת עַל־בָּנִ֛ים וְעַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֥ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִ֖ים לְשֽׂנְאָֽי:

Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy)}5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not suppressed it.

Blessed is the Holy One.

Forgive me readers if This is too much.
Do not be dissuaded.
Everything in due time.
Keep your yes, and no, and study with the Wonderfull Counselor.

Blessings Always.


I mean well for all readers who have yet to study Torah.

In Christ we have One Mother.
And she is not catholic

 

[Pedrito]

From Post #2 (Josiah):

I reject the OBSESSION..., the OBSESSION..., the OBSESSION.... It needs to replace this OBSESSION with power, individualism, denomination, egoism....

From Post #3 (Arsenios):

Obsession is a worthy opponent...

Unmasking and resisting obsession is indeed a worthwhile undertaking – one worthy of praise.

Unless that undertaking itself becomes obsessive.

==============================================================================================

What if someone – someone who was pointing out that the undertaking to expose and resist obsession had itself become obsessive – in turn became obsessed with that (his or her) exercise?

Where could it all end?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What is the comfort of a holy mother church exactly.?
And what is her name?

Her name is "my beloved" and the comfort one received from her - by being a part of her - is that the Lord calls you my beloved.

"Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away;
for lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone.
The flowers appear on the earth, the time of singing has come, and the voice of the turtledove is heard in our land.
The fig tree puts forth its figs, and the vines are in blossom; they give forth fragrance. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
O my dove, in the clefts of the rock, in the covert of the cliff, let me see your face, let me hear your voice, for your voice is sweet, and your face is comely."​