Yet word order in Koine Greek is important...
So the Evangel does NOT say: "BE YE BELIEVING... and then repenting" as you insist it means...
I do NOT indicate that, or even have implied that. I AGREE with YOU - the word "kai" does NOT mean or imply sequence, that "just because the word appears first does not mean it happens first" as you indicated.
The word "kai" (as in the modern English word "and") is a very generic connector, it indicates things are associated.
But association does NOT mandate causation. That's the flaw in the argument that MC rebukes and rejects and repudiates when the topic is anything else, but here employs as a foundational argument when speaking of Justification.
Again, one could say that generally for humans, breathing is associated with living. Being alive and breathing are certainly associated generally for humans. But it's absurd to argue that association mandates causation. Or even sequence unrelated to causation. It's just a silly fallacy - as MC himself otherwise insists, as as you yourself stated.
Again, no one on the planet argues that repentance is irrelevant or unnecessary. I'm just disagreeing with you that a DEAD man who denies that God even exist, who holds that Jesus is a pure silly myth, who denies that God has any wisdom or law, who is void of spiritual life, who is void of the Holy Spirit, entirely without God's involvement, STARTS things (as MC puts it, or "prepares" as you put it) the gaining of life by spiritu ally bowing before God (doing such without anything spiritual to one he denies, rejects and repudiates) sorry that he violated God's wise and right Law and Commands (which he denies exist or is wise), turns to Jesus for forgiveness via the Cross and the Resurrection (all of which he regards as false myths) and looks to the Holy Spirit (which he denies and isn't in his life at all) for direction and strenth in living a more Christ-like life. In other others, the primary cause is self giving self life, faith, the Holy Spirit, justification - it all hinges on one point, what Dead Self does entirely by himself for dead self. So much for Jesus being the Savior.... so much for the Creed proclaiming that the Holy Spirit (not self) is the Lord and GIVER of life.
Now.... if you want to say that the Holy Spirit comes to this man, and as a result of that the man repents.... well, now you are agreeing with Lutherans, but disagreeing with the RCC which dogmatically states the Lutheran perspective is heresy.
The WORK of repentance is to re-establish your relationship with God Who is Life and its Source...
THIS, many argue, IS the Reformation issue, the dispute.
Protestants argue that Jesus is the Savior, you that self is.
Protestants argue that it is the work of Jesus that results in Justification/Life/Faith/Holy Spirit, you that it is the adequate work of a Dead atheist for self.
Protestants argue that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of life, you that a dead man gives this to himself.
Protestants argue that Jesus is the Redeemer, Reconciler, you that a dead man does it himself.
See post 213. Which the RCC denomination insists is heresy. I've asked you and MC to tell us all EXACTLY what in it is heresy. Perhaps here is the answer. Those who differ insist that SELF is the Lord and Giver of Life, SELF saves self by adequately performing certain works (as a dead, lifeless person who denies God and has no Holy Spirit). You look to self as the Reconciler, Luther said we should look to Christ. Many agree, THAT IS the issue. But often, Catholics will deny that and hold that actually they hold that Jesus is the Savior and that the Creed is correct, but then they often say just what you do. I was flately told "Jesus saves no one."
IF Salvation is a solo-act of God...
... then Jesus would be the Savior, wouldn't He? And the Holy Spirit would be the Lord and Giver of life, wouldn't He?
And you would be right when you posted, "Our Salvation is Given by Jesus."
THEN all we need to do to be saved is to be inert...
.... which would mean the Bible is correct and Justification (narrow) is "the free gift of God" "the inheritance from God" "So that no one can boast of themselves." And the Creed would be right when it says that the HOLY SPIRIT is the Lord and GIVER of Life and that JESUS is the Savior. What a radical idea! It's called "The Gospel." See post 213.
BTW, the Pelagianism that MC promotes is actually very NON-Catholic, but relevant since Luther's whole problem with the theology of the Indulgence sellers is that they were teaching Pelagianism and violating the Council of Orange.
.... now,
change the topic to the reality once justified (in this sense), now WITH the "free gift" of faith/life/Holy Spirit/justification - and yes, a LOT comes into play! Repentance/humility..... Love as God first loved us..... Forgiving as God first forgave us..... righteousness and holiness..... living this LIFE we have been given in a Christ-like way...... looking to the Holy Spirit that we now have for direction and divine strengh.... yup.... all those things the RCC has insisted for 500 years that Lutherans and Catholics totally agree on and is NOT the issue, NOT the dispute (and is not the topic of this thread).
I was born on January 23, 1988 and so assume I was conceived (God GIVING me physical LIFE) on April 23, 1987. Tell me, what exactly did
I do in January - March of 1987 that resulted in my having life in March of that year, so that God gave me nothing? And I was baptized on January 23, 1988 - not conscience, not breathing - and I believe given spiritual life. What did I do between March 1987 and January 1988 that caused me to have spiritual life so that God actually gave me nothing? And when Lazarus was in that tomb.... rotting.... stinking.... what did he DO during those days that is the reason he came back to life so taht Jesus did not raise him from the dead? I think we have examples of those simply GIVEN.
Now being GIVING something isn't the end of anything (and that's the issue here, remember the RCC and Protestants FULLY AGREE on the reality then, that's NOT the issue and NOT the topic of this thread). IF you change the subject from Justification (narrow) to the WHOLE of soterology, OF COURSE (everyone agrees!!! Always have, still do!!!!) yes - we play a role. NO ONE HAS EVER DISAGREED. Lutherans were not excommunated because we fully AGREED with the the RCC on all that. The disagreement was and is the topic of this thread.
See post 213. THAT is what the RCC repudiated as heresy, NOT our agreement that once GIVEN these things, we cooperate in our sanctification. You have at times indicate you agree with Lutherans... then you say things like the above that credit everything to self (without even a MENTION of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb - rather self saving self).
- Josiah
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