Justification - Part 2

[MennoSota]

WHAT is it that the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven HAVE that the GREATEST of the OT Saints do not have that makes them GREATER than the OT Saints?

AND...

Then WHAT is the DIFFERENCE between NT and OT Salvation?

The OT Saints were God-saturated in the Holy Spirit, were they not?

Arsenios

Does the Faith chapter, in Hebrews 11, present a difference? From the moment man sinned, God has chosen to be merciful and gracious to whom He wills. Certainly none of the saints, either OT or NT were righteous by their own merit. In fact, all were scoundrels, like us. Yet, God chose to count them as His own by His will and by no other. Go through the list of the faithful and you see that in every case God chose them.
God has not changed.
However, God's redemption via Jesus atonement, took place in time. So, there are some who lived in anticipation, who never got to see what they hoped for (see Job 19), while we who came after were given the privilege of having Jesus atonement already take place.
What is true with all whom God had chosen to redeem is that God graciously gave the gift of faith, which stood as a beacon of God's mercy, pardon and atonement of our sins. Our justification was, is and always will be in Christ and Christ alone.

 

[Arsenios]

You seem to miss the point of Jesus story about the two people.

OK...

The person who pridefully expressed his relationship with God also imagined himself to be justified before God by his good works.

Under the Levitical Law of Moses, where the Parable occurs, this is entirely appropriate... The condemnation of the Pharisee is not because he follows the Christ-given Law of the Jews...

The person who was in tears was broken by the knowledge that their was no righteousness in him at all.

Now you are getting closer...

So the Pharisee obeyed Christ by following the Law, and thought he was one of the elect,
and the Publican collected taxes and knew himself to be utterly a sinner...

Yet what is the leaven of the Pharisee according to Christ?
"You strain the gnat and swallow the camel!"
They hide their huge sins as they tithe to the ounce a bushel of barley...
Hypocrasy is their leaven, you see...

He could never and would never be made right with God by virtue of his own works.

His heart only convicted him of his own sins, which the Pharisee concealed thinking he was one of the elect...

Arsenios, anyone whom God has chosen will be like the person who is broken by his unworthiness.

We are all broken and messed up - As were both these men...

Note that God brings them to this point of recognition....

Christ-God TRIED with the Pharisees, and they wouild not have it...
They nailed Him to the Cross... God failed with the Pharisees and with Israel...
Except for the remnant, the Christian Sect of the Jews...

and then they respond.

Yes, they respond -
Some by confessing their brokenness,
and some by denial of their brokenness...

Welcome to the fallen world of Good AND evil...

The first person remains clueless about their corruption.

He conceals it... Claiming Justification for himself...

The second condemns himself, and is Justified before God...

Arsenios, the parable you are bringing up actually destroys your argument
and it seems you cannot see it.

I know you think so...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Our justification was, is and always will be in Christ and Christ alone.

Were the OT Saints Righteous by being Justified by God?

What is the difference between their Justification and ours?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

OK...



Under the Levitical Law of Moses, where the Parable occurs, this is entirely appropriate... The condemnation of the Pharisee is not because he follows the Christ-given Law of the Jews...



Now you are getting closer...

So the Pharisee obeyed Christ by following the Law, and thought he was one of the elect,
and the Publican collected taxes and knew himself to be utterly a sinner...

Yet what is the leaven of the Pharisee according to Christ?
"You strain the gnat and swallow the camel!"
They hide their huge sins as they tithe to the ounce a bushel of barley...
Hypocrasy is their leaven, you see...



His heart only convicted him of his own sins, which the Pharisee concealed thinking he was one of the elect...



We are all broken and messed up - As were both these men...



Christ-God TRIED with the Pharisees, and they wouild not have it...
They nailed Him to the Cross... God failed with the Pharisees and with Israel...
Except for the remnant, the Christian Sect of the Jews...



Yes, they respond -
Some by confessing their brokenness,
and some by denial of their brokenness...

Welcome to the fallen world of Good AND evil...



He conceals it... Claiming Justification for himself...

The second condemns himself, and is Justified before God...



I know you think so...

Have we posted with each other on another website?
You feel familiar...
I always post under my real name...

Arsenios

You miss it.
The Pharisee trusts in his self-righteous attempt to follow the law. He imagines he has kept the law so that his good works outweigh the bad. He fails to grasp that by breaking even one law he is eternally condemned.
The other man recognizes (because God opened his eyes) that his sin condemns him and there is no hope.
Both, are sinners who are condemned, but the one to whom God has revealed his sin has been chosen.
Note that Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel. Even in the OT not all Israel was elect. Only those to whom God gave the gift of faith were elect.
Arsenios, you have a flawed premise, which confuses your entire understanding.

 

[RichWh1]

WHAT is it that the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven HAVE that the GREATEST of the OT Saints do not have that makes them GREATER than the OT Saints?

AND...

Then WHAT is the DIFFERENCE between NT and OT Salvation?

The OT Saints were God-saturated in the Holy Spirit, were they not?

Arsenios

That statement made by Jesus is a reference to the ones who have seen the Messiah beings greater in that they saw what the Old Testament saints did not see, the fulfillment of their prophecies.

Not greater in the sense of being better rather more privileged. Honored to have seen the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.



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[MennoSota]

Were the OT Saints Righteous by being Justified by God?

What is the difference between their Justification and ours?

Arsenios

There is no difference. God justifies them by giving them faith and atoning for their sins.
All that changed is the covenant that they were under as compared to us. God's grace, mercy and choice remain the same.

 

[Arsenios]

There is no difference. God justifies them by giving them faith and atoning for their sins.
All that changed is the covenant that they were under as compared to us. God's grace, mercy and choice remain the same.

Thank-you for this clear and forthright reply, Menno...

We utterly and profoundly disagree...

In Christ we are a New Creation...

In Moses, it is still the old creation saturated in the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That statement made by Jesus is a reference to the ones who have seen the Messiah beings greater in that they saw what the Old Testament saints did not see, the fulfillment of their prophecies.

Not greater in the sense of being better rather more privileged. Honored to have seen the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies.

They saw Him in prophetic visions...

Pilate saw Him face to face...

So do you think it is the seeing of Jesus in the flesh that is the difference?

I have not so seen Him in the flesh...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You miss it.
The Pharisee trusts in his self-righteous attempt to follow the law.

Who gave him the Law to follow?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Christ-God TRIED with the Pharisees, and they wouild not have it...
They nailed Him to the Cross... God failed with the Pharisees and with Israel...

The above false statement needs to be directly challenged since you paint God as a weak and spineless God who failed. Such a statement is anathema.
You make it seem that God is too weak and was thwarted by the powerful and mighty will of men. Such hogwash must be condemned by all who call God their Lord.
Jesus tells us that God's will was for Him to die and atone for the sins of the elect. Not one person whom God has chosen (from before the foundation of the world) has been lost and left unsaved. He is perfectly accomplishing His will.
Jesus also told Pilate that He had an army in heaven at his disposal. He was giving His life for the elect by His choice, not because he was too weak to stop sinners from following Satan's desires.
God has NEVER failed with anyone. He has chosen to justly condemn sinful man and he has graciously chosen to pardon some. In all situations God has perfectly accomplished everything exactly according to His ordained will.
Shame on you for saying that our God has failed. Your statement is from hell.

 

[RichWh1]

They saw Him in prophetic visions...

Pilate saw Him face to face...

So do you think it is the seeing of Jesus in the flesh that is the difference?

I have not so seen Him in the flesh...

Arsenios

My reference was to New Testament believers not just people who saw Jesus. A lot had seen his face yet did not believe.
Justification is a matter of faith, trust in the finished work of Christ.
Besides Jesus said that the least in the kingdom was greater. Not just any old person. Got it yet? Hope so.



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[MennoSota]

Who gave him the Law to follow?

Arsenios

Who gave them the air to breathe?
Scripture tells us that the law was given to condemn us for our sins. It does not and cannot save us from sin. It can only reveal our guilt.
The Pharisee saw the law as a list of how to be righteous while the other man saw it for what it is...the rules which justly condemn us.
God gave the law to us all. It condemns us all. We need a Redeemer who will take the penalty of the law upon himself and pardon us.
Arsenios, you preach a works gospel like the Pharisee.

 

[Arsenios]

The above false statement needs to be directly challenged since you paint God as a weak and spineless God who failed. Such a statement is anathema.
You make it seem that God is too weak and was thwarted by the powerful and mighty will of men. Such hogwash must be condemned by all who call God their Lord.
Jesus tells us that God's will was for Him to die and atone for the sins of the elect. Not one person whom God has chosen (from before the foundation of the world) has been lost and left unsaved. He is perfectly accomplishing His will.
Jesus also told Pilate that He had an army in heaven at his disposal. He was giving His life for the elect by His choice, not because he was too weak to stop sinners from following Satan's desires.
God has NEVER failed with anyone. He has chosen to justly condemn sinful man and he has graciously chosen to pardon some. In all situations God has perfectly accomplished everything exactly according to His ordained will.
Shame on you for saying that our God has failed. Your statement is from hell.

What it shows is God's purpose with fallen man to respect his decisions regarding Good and evil in a fallen world...

Christ tried to persuade the Pharisees...
Christ desired to persuade the Pharisees...
The Pharisees were not persuaded...

We must conclude that He failed to win the Pharisees...
Except for His Remnant...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

What it shows is God's purpose with fallen man to respect his decisions regarding Good and evil in a fallen world...

Christ tried to persuade the Pharisees...
Christ desired to persuade the Pharisees...
The Pharisees were not persuaded...

We must conclude that He failed to win the Pharisees...
Except for His Remnant...

Arsenios

Romans 1 tells us that God lets their sin consume them. He justly leaves them to their damnation...just as He should have done with you and me. We deserve the exact same fate.
If Jesus/God had willed to save them by his grace, the Pharisee would have fallen to His knees...just as Saul, the self-righteous Pharisee did on the road to Damascus.
God is NOT a negotiator. God is the SOVEREIGN KING and anything He wills is done...exactly as He wills.
Arsenios, your man-made image of God is a weak idol that you have created rather than the God of Creation.
We can only conclude one thing: God chose to justly condemn the Pharisee because His righteous law condemned the Pharisee. God chose to not be gracious. His grace is reserved for whom He wills to adopt and pardon.
The claims you are making come from hell, Arsenios. I can only call you to repent and acknowledge that God never fails.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, even so, perhaps we can address our Brother Josiah's complaint...

I didn't think it was his thread, but had forgotten whose it was...

So it is YOU who are the TROUBLEMAKER here!

Arsenios

Indeed. Evidently an Irenic first post asking for civilised discussion and the avoidance of polemics is trouble indeed! We've had rather a lot of polemics in the thread's nearly 1,200 posts but on the whole a good deal of decent discussion has happened too. I am of the opinion that most of the important material was covered in the first 40 posts give or take 20 posts.

 

[Andrew]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

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[TurtleHare]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

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I have yet to read through all this massive fighting, er I mean discussing, and am happy to see that verse pop up even on page 2 and that exposing our savior for what he did is our essence of who we are cuz without him? Not much buddy.

When you got mankind looking at their works instead of the works of our God then you got a whole mess of trouble that builds man into a false trust in himself thinking he accomplished something good to please God. But apart from what Jesus did we don't please God at all so there is that false gospel being pushed around that man has to do a part and Jesus couldn't finish what He started to save us, oh woe is us, who will save us?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have yet to read through all this massive fighting, er I mean discussing, and am happy to see that verse pop up even on page 2 and that exposing our savior for what he did is our essence of who we are cuz without him? Not much buddy.

When you got mankind looking at their works instead of the works of our God then you got a whole mess of trouble that builds man into a false trust in himself thinking he accomplished something good to please God. But apart from what Jesus did we don't please God at all so there is that false gospel being pushed around that man has to do a part and Jesus couldn't finish what He started to save us, oh woe is us, who will save us?

The faithful are called to do good works as the passage says (Ephesians 2:10) so they are not called to do "their works" but rather good works that God has prepared for them to do as their way of life. Good works are God's works. Together with believing in the Son of God - which the Lord himself said was the work of God - Christians do good in this world for the hope that is in them regarding the resurrection and eternal life and motivated by God's love for them and their love for him.

 

[Josiah]

We do have a fundamental disagreement but it is not the one you mention. That isn't even a matter of dispute. Dead people hear nothing.

See posts 141 and 142.

What is posted there (the Lutheran position on justification) is the fundamental disagreement, IT is what the RC Denomination (after very careful review) declared to be horrible heresy and officially condemned and anathematized. Note, the RCC has NEVER said, "Oh, Lutherans - what you say is biblical and wonderful and ever-so-true and we entirely agree, it's just there is MORE to soteriology than that, there is also our response to it, just as you Lutherans also say in the part that's also biblical and wonderful and true." It did NOT (and never has) said "Oh, that's nice and true - but we'd prefer to word it this way.' No. It officially and as boldly as it could, stated that IT (posts 141, 142) is HERESY and condemned it with bold ANATHEMAS. So, what I posted in 141 and 142 IS EXACTLY what we disagree with, it IS the "foundational disagreement", it IS what your denomination split Western Christianity over, it is what the RC Denomination has insisted for 500 years now is HERESY.

The fundamental disagreement is that you think that you know what I think when you have not really managed to deal with what I've written time and time again. Lazarus was dead. Jesus commanded "Lazarus come forth" and Lazarus did come forth. The command was in and of itself sufficient to wake the dead man Lazarus. The command had that power because it was God's command. Pay careful attention Lazarus was dead and then he was obeying a command from Jesus who is God incarnate. The command empowered Lazarus and gave him life. It was the will of God that Lazarus should rise and come forth and he did. The same is true of Adam. God created him from the dust of the ground. He was not a living soul. He was a body formed by God. Then God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's nostrils and Adam lived. He became a living soul. God acted and Adam responded. That is the paradigm.

Thank you for that wonderfully Protestant perspective....


Now, back to the issue. See posts 141 and 142. What Catholicism for the past 500 years has been SO very upset over, has declared to be Heresy, has anathematized. You agreeing withe MennoSota on the ISSUE BEFORE US (although not on OTHER issues this thread is NOT about) does nothing to reveal why Lutherans are SO horribly wrong, SO powerfully heretics on this issue.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] writes "See posts 141 and 142. What is posted there (the Lutheran position on justification) is the fundamental disagreement" but MennoSota is not a Lutheran and he did not write posts 141 & 142 MennoSota's disgreement is what he stated it was. Not what Josiah amended it to be in the above quote from Josiah's post. MennoSota is capable of speaking on his own behalf.