Bad theology perpetuated in songs.

[MennoSota]

I saw this meme and it made me laugh. So much of our worldview seems tied up in the songs we listen to and sing at church. What "Christian" songs make you cringe when you hear them and why do they make you cringe?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I saw this meme and it made me laugh. So much of our worldview seems tied up in the songs we listen to and sing at church. What "Christian" songs make you cringe when you hear them and why do they make you cringe?

Many hillsong songs make me cringe because their theology is so self-absorbed. A good number are additionally teaching very bad theology.

 

[tango]

Just about anything from Bethel Music because, well, the music is mindlessly repetitive and the theology is a combination of absent, thin or faulty.

 

[NewCreation435]

Many hillsong songs make me cringe because their theology is so self-absorbed. A good number are additionally teaching very bad theology.

could you give open specific example instead of speaking in generalities?

 

[tango]

could you give open specific example instead of speaking in generalities?

What a beautiful name it is lyrics:

You were the Word at the beginning
One With God the Lord Most High
Your hidden glory in creation
Now revealed in You our Christ

What a beautiful Name it is
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a beautiful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

You didn't want heaven without us
So Jesus, You brought heaven down
My sin was great, Your love was greater
What could separate us now

What a wonderful Name it is
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a wonderful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

The first verse is OK as far as it goes. The chorus is just a load of endless repetition. The second verse seems like a collection of random thoughts of questionable theological merit, and then another round of endless repetition of the same couple of lines and the chorus is repeated (and often repeated again, and again, and again ad nauseum).

This one doesn't rate as theologically toxic in my book but is put well and truly into the group I call drivel.

 

[NewCreation435]

What a beautiful name it is lyrics:

You were the Word at the beginning
One With God the Lord Most High
Your hidden glory in creation
Now revealed in You our Christ

What a beautiful Name it is
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a beautiful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a beautiful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

You didn't want heaven without us
So Jesus, You brought heaven down
My sin was great, Your love was greater
What could separate us now

What a wonderful Name it is
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus Christ my King
What a wonderful Name it is
Nothing compares to this
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus
What a wonderful Name it is
The Name of Jesus

The first verse is OK as far as it goes. The chorus is just a load of endless repetition. The second verse seems like a collection of random thoughts of questionable theological merit, and then another round of endless repetition of the same couple of lines and the chorus is repeated (and often repeated again, and again, and again ad nauseum).

This one doesn't rate as theologically toxic in my book but is put well and truly into the group I call drivel.

the endless repetition is from a song that lasts only 5 minutes and 42 seconds.

 

[Arsenios]

Well, what do you expect when you have "worship leaders" parked on a stage with a bass guitarist, drummer, and lead-guitar and vocalist, and maybe an electric piano player? These are kids, and if not, then young adults - moving creatively through the emotions of their relationship with God and its apparent correlations in the Bible... They cannot be nor should they be expected to be mature Christians well steeped in theological conceptualizations... What results is the equivalent of emotional accounting theologically, when it is intended to join people together in an emotional worship of shared human feelings for God...

I have to admit I have winced a time or three listening to the words...

My 2 cents, anyhow...

Arsenios

 

[meluckycharms]

Well, I think we need to ask ourselves what the purpose of worship is and then ask if these songs are fulfilling that purpose regardless if it is theologically debatable.

 

[tango]

the endless repetition is from a song that lasts only 5 minutes and 42 seconds.

Perhaps, but most of that 5 minutes and 42 seconds is singing more or less the same line over and over and over.

 

[tango]

Well, I think we need to ask ourselves what the purpose of worship is and then ask if these songs are fulfilling that purpose regardless if it is theologically debatable.

If theological soundness isn't required to count as worship, where would you draw the line?

 

[psalms 91]

Worship is done to please God not the other way around so I guess the real question is does this glorify God and is the heart right in worship? Remember that true worship is donme in spirit and truth according to scripture so how does this fit that?

 

[tango]

Worship is done to please God not the other way around so I guess the real question is does this glorify God and is the heart right in worship? Remember that true worship is donme in spirit and truth according to scripture so how does this fit that?

Does endless repetition and chanting of lines of dubious theological soundness please God?

 

[Josiah]

Worship is done to please God not the other way around so I guess the real question is does this glorify God and is the heart right in worship? Remember that true worship is donme in spirit and truth according to scripture so how does this fit that?

IMO, a song pleases God if it's true. Falsehood never pleases God.


Seems to ME, in some worshiping communities, the issue seems to be FEELINGS, how this song makes self FEEL. It's self-directed and about blessing self. Now - YES - the Gospel should make us feel good, but IMO that's a side benefit (lol) and not the point. Proclaim Law and/or Gospel (not mixing them) - and let them do what they divinely do when rightly proclaimed.


I like songs that are "singable" (even enjoyable, musically) but to me, the POINT is: Is it true? It is faithfully proclaiming Law and/or Gospel? Is it Christocentric (or self-centered), lifting high the Cross or the mirror, proclaiming Jesus as THE Savior or suggesting that self actually is?




https://www.crisismagazine.com/2009/good-hymns-bad-hymns
https://www.onfaith.co/discussion/lets-stop-singing-these-10-worship-songs



- Josiah




.

 

[tango]

I think another good test for songs is to see how well they work if you simply speak the words.

Take a traditional hymn:

Praise my soul the King of heaven, to his feet thy tribute bring
Ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven, who like me his praise should sing?
Praise him, praise him, praise him, praise him
Praise the everlasting King

A little repetition in there but the overall message looks pretty good. The message is somewhat focused on me in that it's about me praising but it's in the form of an instruction to praise God.

Here's a more modern song, even if not all that modern:

You laid aside your majesty, gave up everything for me
Suffered at the hands of those you had created
You took all my guilt and shame when you died and rose again
Now today you reign in heaven and earth exalted

Hard to see much to fault in there, in an acknowledgement of just what Jesus Christ has done for me.

 

[tango]

Here are the lyrics to "Deep cries out" by Bethel Music. I've quoted the lyrics in their entirety to make the point:

I've got a river of living water
A fountain that never will run dry
It's an open heaven You're releasing
And we will never be denied

'Cause we're stirring up deep-deep wells,
We're stirring up deep-deep waters
We're gonna dance in the river, dance in the river
'Cause we're stirring up deep-deep wells,
We're stirring up deep-deep waters
We're gonna jump in the river, jump in the river

Deep cries out, deep cries out to You
Deep cries out, deep cries out to You
We cry out, we cry out to You, Jesus

I've got a river of living water
A fountain that never will run dry
It's an open heaven You're releasing
And we will never be denied

'Cause we're stirring up deep-deep wells
We're stirring up deep-deep waters
We're gonna dance in the river, dance in the river
'Cause we're stirring up deep-deep wells
We're stirring up deep-deep waters
We're gonna jump in the river, jump in
Everybody singing!

Deep cries out, deep cries out to You
Deep cries out, deep cries out to You
We cry out, we cry out to You, Jesus
[2x]

We're falling into deeper waters, calling out to You
We're walking into deeper waters, going after You

And if He goes to the left then we'll go to the left,
And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
We're gonna jump-jump, jump-jump in the river,
Jump-jump, jump-jump, everybody.

If He goes to the left then we'll go to the left,
And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
We're gonna dance-dance, dance-dance in the river,
Dance-dance, dance-dance, everybody

If He goes to the left then we'll go to the left,
And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
We're gonna jump-jump, jump-jump in the river,
Jump-jump, jump-jump everybody.

If He goes to the left then we'll go to the left,
And if He goes to the right then we'll go to the right
We're gonna shout-shout, shout-shout in the river
Shout-shout, shout-shout, yeah!

Deep cries out, deep cries out to you
Deep cries out, deep cries out to you
We cry out, we cry out to You, Jesus
[2x]


Is there any part of this song that is neither theologically suspect, nor endlessly repetitive drivel, nor totally focused on me and what I'm doing?

 

[tango]

I like songs that are "singable" (even enjoyable, musically) but to me, the POINT is: Is it true? It is faithfully proclaiming Law and/or Gospel? Is it Christocentric (or self-centered), lifting high the Cross or the mirror, proclaiming Jesus as THE Savior or suggesting that self actually is?
.

This makes me think of some of the more traditional hymns we use in my church, often with no musical accompaniment whatsoever. Personally I don't care for that style of music but it's purely a preference thing - I wouldn't say we shouldn't do it because of theological concerns. Other people in the church obviously like it, and there's room for lots of different preferences. When I come across songs that are theologically suspect or endlessly repetitive they tend to be the most modern of the more contemporary songs. If songs that are theologically faulty count as "worship" it opens all sorts of cans of worms.

 

[MennoSota]

Silent Night, one of the most commonly sung Christmas Carols is devoid of any theology.

Silent night, holy night
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child
Holy Infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace
Silent night, holy night!
Shepherds quake at the sight
Glories stream from heaven afar
Heavenly hosts sing "Alleluia"!
Christ, the Saviour is born
Christ, the Saviour is born
Silent night, holy night
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from Thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth
Silent night, holy night
All is calm and all is bright
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child
Holy Infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace

 

[tango]

Silent Night, one of the most commonly sung Christmas Carols is devoid of any theology.

Silent night, holy night
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child
Holy Infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace
Silent night, holy night!
Shepherds quake at the sight
Glories stream from heaven afar
Heavenly hosts sing "Alleluia"!
Christ, the Saviour is born
Christ, the Saviour is born
Silent night, holy night
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from Thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth
Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth
Silent night, holy night
All is calm and all is bright
Round yon Virgin Mother and Child
Holy Infant so tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace
Sleep in heavenly peace

Maybe not completely devoid. Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia as Christ the Savior is born.

 

[MennoSota]

Maybe not completely devoid. Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia as Christ the Savior is born.

It's merely pointing out a historic event. No theology provided.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

"I Win" - Clint Brown

(*And, btw, I am not kidding about all the "repeats")

No matter what the weapon is, I want you to know that I win
(Repeat x4)

(I win) I win (repeat x8)
(Repeat verse and Chorus 3x)

No matter what the weapon is, I want you to know
that if I won’t doubt he’ll bring me out

(I win) I win (Repeat x8)
(Repeat verse and chorus)

No matter what the weapon is, I want you to know
That if I won’t doubt he’ll bring me out
If I obey he’ll make a way

(I win) I win (repeat x8)
(Repeat verse and Chorus)

No matter what the weapon is, I want you to know
That if I won’t doubt he’ll bring me out
If I obey he’ll make a way
If I believe I will receive
Everything he promised me

(I win) I win (repeat x8)

No matter what the weapon is
I want you to know that I win