Justification

[Andrew]

Great. So humans are corrupted.
I will say that their corruption is similar to cancer. No matter how hard we work to get healthy, we still have the cancer in us. We cannot get rid of this cancer. No matter what we try to do, it is impossible for us. This is why Paul cries out in Romans 7, "Who will deliver me from this body of sin?"
What is Paul's answer? If it isn't our efforts, what is it?
Now, there are people at the CH who insist that they must work to deliver themselves from their body of sin. Therefore, I suggest that your claim is not accurate. There are some around here, despite your claim to the contrary.

Its called stepping out of your flesh and living in spirit, we do this in worship although you find all churches pagan I dont suspect you have ever experienced it.
You may not believe but people do change in their walk with God, I was that thief and when the Holy Ghost hit me I was afraid to ever steal anything ever again, I also am afraid to cuss again or at least my conscious does not allow me to, I kind of get a nervous tick if I even think about it... So yeah the experience changed me for the better and I love it, its testimony to those who knew me and my old ways, im a different person... What you want to fight about it? Lets go bro, cash me ouside! Lol

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[Arsenios]

I am a child of God, just like Paul.

Sorry, you do not have the Apostolic Calling...

We can ask our Father the same things. Paul was a sinner, graciously adopted by God, just like I am. We are brothers. There is nothing more special about Paul or any of the Apostles. They are brothers in the faith. God gave them their task as he gives me my task. Please don't act as though they live on a higher spiritual plain. I thank God for having Paul write about the false teachers who tried to corrupt the gospel by adding works. It becomes easy to identify the same false teaching today.

Sorry, you do not have the Apostolic Calling...

1Co 4:9-13
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong;
ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked,
and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless;
Being defamed, we intreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Does this sound at all like you??

1Co 4:14-16
I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you,
be ye followers of me.

Are you a Spiritual Father to many?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Sorry, you do not have the Apostolic Calling...



Sorry, you do not have the Apostolic Calling...

1Co 4:9-13
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong;
ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked,
and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless;
Being defamed, we intreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Does this sound at all like you??

1Co 4:14-16
I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you,
be ye followers of me.

Are you a Spiritual Father to many?

Arsenios

Who cares if I had a role as an Apostle or a street sweeper? The role is irrelevant. Paul explains that every part of the body is important (Read 1 Corinthians 10). We, Paul and myself, are both a part of the body of Christ. We are both brothers in the family of God. He had his function and I have mine. Both are equally important.
Arsenios, it seems you have created some mythical hierarchy in the body that doesn't exist. Paul and I are equally corrupted by our rebellious nature. We are equally ransomed by the atoning work of Christ. We are equally justified by Christ and Christ alone.
It seems you may have created an idol to worship, which is also anathema.

 

[MennoSota]

Its called stepping out of your flesh and living in spirit, we do this in worship although you find all churches pagan I dont suspect you have ever experienced it.
You may not believe but people do change in their walk with God, I was that thief and when the Holy Ghost hit me I was afraid to ever steal anything ever again, I also am afraid to cuss again or at least my conscious does not allow me to, I kind of get a nervous tick if I even think about it... So yeah the experience changed me for the better and I love it, its testimony to those who knew me and my old ways, im a different person... What you want to fight about it? Lets go bro, cash me ouside! Lol

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

What does this have to do with the conversation regarding people believing they are made right with God by their own works as Arsenios and MC have argued?

 

[MennoSota]

When God created Adam's body from the dust of the ground it was 100% God's work of creation, and when God breathed the Spirit of life into Adam's nostrils it was 100% God's work of vilification, and when Adam started breathing it was 100% Adam's response to God's creation and God's gift of life. God is good. He is always the giver. He gives all things and he gives life and those to whom God gives life live it 100% themselves as his gift. A man is justified by works and not by faith alone and a man is saved by grace through faith for the purpose of doing the good works that God created in advance for him to do as his way of life. God is good. God is glorified by his creation. The angels praise his goodness and name and his faithful people do the same - perhaps not as beautifully but they do it all the same. Each according to his ability.

When Adam started breathing it was 100% by ordination of God. When Adam took every breath it was 100% by ordination of God. When Adam died it was 100% by ordination of God. It is in God that we live and breathe. Apart from God nothing exists. It is odd that we take credit for anything.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When Adam started breathing it was 100% by ordination of God. When Adam took every breath it was 100% by ordination of God. When Adam died it was 100% by ordination of God. It is in God that we live and breathe. Apart from God nothing exists. It is odd that we take credit for anything.

It is very odd that you think any credit is given to the creation for being in existence and even more odd that you think stating the truth is giving credit to the creature rather than his creator. The truth is that people live their own lives. In God we live and move and have our being and now God calls all men everywhere to repent. So repent and believe the gospel because human beings are justified by works and not by faith alone and human beings are saved by grace through faith for the purpose of doing the good works that God prepared for them to do as their way of life. It is not difficult to understand. Not difficult for the redeemed to accept. It truly is 100% and 100% as was said in an earlier post as the answer to how much belongs to God and how much to humanity. It is like the incarnation you know; the man Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man - no one loses in God's plan all are benefited all receive everything that it is his will for them to receive and it is all of grace none of it earned yet all of it properly and rightly worked in God's plan. Not a childishly unrighteous zero sum game but an adult mature plan where all benefit to the full 100% of their capacity.

 

[MennoSota]

It is very odd that you think any credit is given to the creation for being in existence and even more odd that you think stating the truth is giving credit to the creature rather than his creator. The truth is that people live their own lives. In God we live and move and have our being and now God calls all men everywhere to repent. So repent and believe the gospel because human beings are justified by works and not by faith alone and human beings are saved by grace through faith for the purpose of doing the good works that God prepared for them to do as their way of life. It is not difficult to understand. Not difficult for the redeemed to accept. It truly is 100% and 100% as was said in an earlier post as the answer to how much belongs to God and how much to humanity. It is like the incarnation you know; the man Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% man - no one loses in God's plan all are benefited all receive everything that it is his will for them to receive and it is all of grace none of it earned yet all of it properly and rightly worked in God's plan. Not a childishly unrighteous zero sum game but an adult mature plan where all benefit to the full 100% of their capacity.

Wow, that's quite a twisted thought you have. So much of it is your human reasoning with no biblical support.
Second, your first statement isn't what I said, so you begin with a false concept and run with it as though it was claimed.
Third, your attempt to make all humans equal with Christ Jesus as 100% is just strange.

 

[Andrew]

What does this have to do with the conversation regarding people believing they are made right with God by their own works as Arsenios and MC have argued?

We are all just struggling to get you to understand that transformation is a real thing but the way you come across is that it goes against scripture somehow.
No one here is working for righteousness or for justification, works are given to us from God who has already ordained it so and has justified us and made us righteous.
Again I believe you are misunderstood Menno, and I don't know how to help but most of what you say is true, the rest just sounds poorly worded and makes you sound totally wrong and thats were it loses credibility. You may 100 percent right and we probably all agree with you but you come off so defensive it makes us defensive and causes a barrier lol... maybe its just me

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[Albion]

Great. So humans are corrupted.
I will say that their corruption is similar to cancer. No matter how hard we work to get healthy, we still have the cancer in us. We cannot get rid of this cancer. No matter what we try to do, it is impossible for us. This is why Paul cries out in Romans 7, "Who will deliver me from this body of sin?"
What is Paul's answer? If it isn't our efforts, what is it?
Now, there are people at the CH who insist that they must work to deliver themselves from their body of sin.

If they must work to deliver themselves from sin, they already believe themselves to be in sin, corrupted.

Therefore, I suggest that your claim is not accurate. There are some around here, despite your claim to the contrary.

You often tie yourself up in verbal knots, I've observed. This is one such example. The "therefore" here is to the effect that my "claim " is accurate, not that it is inaccurate.

 

[MennoSota]

We are all just struggling to get you to understand that transformation is a real thing but the way you come across is that it goes against scripture somehow.
No one here is working for righteousness or for justification, works are given to us from God who has already ordained it so and has justified us and made us righteous.
Again I believe you are misunderstood Menno, and I don't know how to help but most of what you say is true, the rest just sounds poorly worded and makes you sound totally wrong and thats were it loses credibility. You may 100 percent right and we probably all agree with you but you come off so defensive it makes us defensive and causes a barrier lol... maybe its just me

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Transformation is real. It is God alone who transforms us. We are corrupt. We bring cancer to the situation. God alone brings healing.
People must stop preaching that they are "helping" God in the transformation process. We aren't. We cannot "help". Only Christ can help.

 

[MennoSota]

If they must work to deliver themselves from sin, they already believe themselves to be in sin, corrupted.



You often tie yourself up in verbal knots, I've observed. This is one such example. The "therefore" here is to the effect that my "claim " is accurate, not that it is inaccurate.

Wow, you have pretzeled what I said. How did you twist it so badly?

 

[MennoSota]

Perhaps Matt Redman can say it better...
https://youtu.be/m2cWrjq-O0I
Our salvation and justification is only in Christ.

 

[Albion]

Wow, you have pretzeled what I said. How did you twist it so badly?

I was afraid that you wouldn't see where you had contradicted yourself without me spelling it out with excruciating specificity and a lot of cutting and pasting, but I was hoping.

 

[MennoSota]

I was afraid that you wouldn't see where you had contradicted yourself without me spelling it out with excruciating specificity and a lot of cutting and pasting, but I was hoping.

This seems to be your MO for avoiding theology.
There is no biblical text that states 100% God and 100% man, working in co-relationship, in order to be justified.

 

[Albion]

This seems to be your MO for avoiding theology.
There is no biblical text that states 100% God and 100% man, working in co-relationship, in order to be justified.

Well, since I have never commented on that 100% God and 100% Man proposition (which is a correct understanding), I cannot imagine that I was deficient when I addressed a completely different issue--your notion that some us here think Man in his natural state is uncorrupted.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, since I have never commented on that 100% God and 100% Man proposition (which is a correct understanding), I cannot imagine that I was deficient when I addressed a completely different issue--your notion that some us here think Man in his natural state is uncorrupted.

Do you agree that man is corrupt, period? We who stand before God as Christians are only justified by Jesus atoning work on our behalf. There is no "goodness" within us, whether we are saved or not.

 

[Albion]

Well, duh. What took you so long?

 

[Arsenios]

Wow, you have pretzeled what I said. How did you twist it so badly?

Seems like everybody is pretzelizing except you...

Funny how things seem sometimes, yes?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This seems to be your MO for avoiding theology.
There is no biblical text that states 100% God and 100% man, working in co-relationship, in order to be justified.

Then why did you ask the question about percentages?
Forget percentages - That word is not in the Bible...

God Calls...
Man repents...
God Saves...

Man can do nothing apart from God...

This has been happening for 2000 years now and counting...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Perhaps Matt Redman can say it better...
https://youtu.be/m2cWrjq-O0I
Our salvation and justification is only in Christ.

Thank you for the humility and for the song done by Matt Redman...
What a great way to begin the 100th page of our discussion...

"You alone can Save us..."
I for one am willing to die here and now in defense of that understanding...

If you love that song, then your heart is in much better shape than your head!!
And I thank God for YOU...

Arsenios