Justification

[atpollard]

OK - True or False?

Salvation in the Reformed understanding...
IS
The imputation of the Righteousness of Christ...

Or maybe so and maybe no??

Arsenios

No.

 

[Arsenios]

And to ask if imputed righteousness=salvation... huh?

I thought it was a good question...

1: Is there any person in the history of humankind who has ever had Christ's Righteousness imputed to him or her by God who by that action is somehow not saved?

2: Is there any person in the entire history of mankind who has ever NOT had Christ's rughteousness imputed to him or her who is somehow saved?

3: I mean, if God imputes Christ's Righteousness to anyone, are they saved or not?

4: And if God does not impute Christ's Righteousness to a person, is that person saved or not?

i mean, it has a kind of logic to it, this question, wouldn't you think?

My answer is "No" - see my post above for explanation.

Well, I have one yes and one no so far - Can you perhaps show by example?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No.

Two no's and one yes...

So do you have any sentence that might be:
"In the Reformation theology, Salvation is understood as [10 words or less]."(Preferably one or two...)

Is Salvation Justification?
Is Salvation Imputed Righteousness?
Is Salvation Forgiveness of Sins?

The face of Salvation in the Reformation is getting kinda shifty:

:slomo:

Can we get a subject to predicate solid definition of some kind?

Arsenios

 

[popsthebuilder]

OK - Does this mean that I have not made this decision?



We all have to start somewhere, do we not? Are you really and truly proposing that we begin already justified in Christ?

You see, repenting is available to all - And most begin from a personal condition of profoundly experienced need... "A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..." So it is usually only AFTER exhausting one's personal resources that one encounters God's Grace and finds hope... David even knew God's Salvation, and fell to Bathsheba...



And Christ GIVES Salvation, and nobody seems to want to address my question of what it IS that Christ Gives that IS Salvation?

Justification is the making right of a person with God, of establishing that person in right relationship with God - It is progressive... Overcoming one sin at a time, and getting more right with God with each overcoming of sin, and each carries God's Glory, from Glory to Glory... Revelation speaks of those overcoming being glorified in various ways in the 7 Churches...

Sanctification is the Presence of the Holy Spirit leading one's Walk in Christ... We do not see much of it these days...



IF we obey Christ, we TAKE UP OUR OWN CROSS... Because we are following Christ, and make up in our own flesh what is left behind of the afflictions of Christ... For Christ is WITHIN us... We see God within in purity of heart, and we see Him without through the same purity... As babes in Christ, we do not see much... For our purification of the heart in repentance has only just begun...



Does nobody know that what God gives us, the Grace that He gives us that is our Salvation, is God Himself? He is the ONLY one who CAN give Himself to us, because He is the only one Who HAS Himself to GIVE... It is the JOINING of man TO God - The CON-JOINING of man with God - that IS the New Creation that we ARE in Christ, and in the discipling of repentance unto the purification of the heart, we progressively see more and more clearly as we gradually become more and more God-bearing in our walk as we acquire the Holy Spirit of God according to our purification's progressing...

It's a big deal...


Arsenios

The love of GOD is placed in one's heart and fills ones mind; giving them the capacity to know what is pleasing to the Lord and what is not; and the means and ability to turn towards what is pleasing, or the wants of "self".

Only my opinion I suppose.

Some would contend that eternal life is given.....I don't think that is what you were getting at though.

peace

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

Some would contend that eternal life is given.....
I don't think that is what you were getting at though.

I was just about to write about as a question:
"Does Salvtion involve entering into Life Eternal in this life?"
Orthodoxy says yes...
And we know from John the definition of Life Eternal, yes? John 17:3

Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I thought it was a good question...

It just seemed confusing as I'd never heard it phrased quite that way. Your clarifications below help.

1: Is there any person in the history of humankind who has ever had Christ's Righteousness imputed to him or her by God who by that action is somehow not saved?

I would say "no"

2: Is there any person in the entire history of mankind who has ever NOT had Christ's righteousness imputed to him or her who is somehow saved?

No, they would not be. It is by the righteousness of Christ that we are saved

3: I mean, if God imputes Christ's Righteousness to anyone, are they saved or not?

Yes, they are (with a caveat, see below)

4: And if God does not impute Christ's Righteousness to a person, is that person saved or not?

No, they are not.

i mean, it has a kind of logic to it, this question, wouldn't you think?

Yes, I do. And thank you for clarifying what you meant.

Well, I have one yes and one no so far - Can you perhaps show by example?

Caveat: This "imputed righteousness" (I prefer, and use, "Grace" as a term to frame it) is not a solitary act that preserves the believer once and for all. I would make the distinction that this initial grace (or Imputation) is "Justification". It has a singular meaning that veers from the meaning presented by the OP. Continuing in grace is the process of "sanctification". If one fails to continue in the grace (righteousness) they have received, then there is a danger of falling away from the faith.

Arsenios[/QUOTE]

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The face of Salvation in the Reformation is getting kinda shifty:

Arsenios

This surprises you? :scared:

 

[hedrick]

Just because effect always follows its cause doesn't mean they're the same. Nor are two things that come from the same cause the same thing.

Yes, everyone who is justified is and will be saved, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. As we've tried to explain many times, for Reformed thought salvation includes both justification and "sanctification."

I agree that salvation includes entering eternal life in this life. That's probably a better of way of describing "sanctification," so it's one aspect of salvation. It's grounded on our acceptance by God, which is justification. Justification and sanctification are both consequences of being in Christ, which in itself is based on Christ's death for us and our trust and reliance on it in faith.

 

[Arsenios]

This "imputed righteousness" (I prefer, and use, "Grace" as a term to frame it) is not a solitary act that preserves the believer once and for all. I would make the distinction that this initial grace (or Imputation) is "Justification". It has a singular meaning that veers from the meaning presented by the OP. Continuing in grace is the process of "sanctification". If one fails to continue in the grace (righteousness) they have received, then there is a danger of falling away from the faith.

I agree with your conclusion, that salvation can be lost...

But "Imputed Righteousness" as Grace, while it would have to be, is a really really big Word...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This surprises you? :scared:

Oh now that was an entirely unnecessary and unkind thing to say!

But look, the point I put forth, that this "Imputed Righteousness" is in fact simply a reflection of the Holiness of God in one's initial encounter with Him upon an unrepentant soul that is a desert thirsting for the Waters of Grace, such that the unrepentant person experiencing it thinks it IS Salvation, when in a way it is so, but is the Call of God which precedes Justification, as Paul describes in Romans... This point no one has touched...

Do you have any idea why?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

For Reformed thought salvation includes both justification and "sanctification."

I agree that salvation includes entering eternal life in this life. That's probably a better of way of describing "sanctification," so it's one aspect of salvation. It's grounded on our acceptance by God, which is justification. Justification and sanctification are both consequences of being in Christ, which in itself is based on Christ's death for us and our trust and reliance on it in faith.

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did Fore-know,
He also did Fore-ordain to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did Fore-ordain,
them He also Called:
and whom He Called,
them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified,
them He also Glorified.


So then in terms of Reformation Theology and its descendents, where is the Call of God differentiated from the Justification that occurs prior to it as described by Paul above?

And then what does "Them also He Glorified" mean?

How many Christians do you know have been Glorified? Paul was one... And Peter and Stephan... Have you ever met a Glorified by God Christian? Every generation has some...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just because effect always follows its cause doesn't mean they're the same. Nor are two things that come from the same cause the same thing.

Yes, everyone who is justified is and will be saved, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. As we've tried to explain many times, for Reformed thought salvation includes both justification and "sanctification."

I agree that salvation includes entering eternal life in this life. That's probably a better of way of describing "sanctification," so it's one aspect of salvation. It's grounded on our acceptance by God, which is justification. Justification and sanctification are both consequences of being in Christ, which in itself is based on Christ's death for us and our trust and reliance on it in faith.

Holy scripture uses "justification" and its cognate forms (justify, justified and so on) in a wider sense than is common in Reformed theology so the use of the word as if it is the same in meaning as is "justification" and its cognate forms in holy scripture cannot help but be a source of confusion. Brother Josiah is in the habit of typing "justification narrow" for the narrow sense which appears to be the theological meaning within conservative/confessional Lutheran theology so I wondered if you might want to find an expression or a prefix or suffix that will help readers to distinguish the theological sense(s) in which you use the word from the sense(s) in which is it used in holy scripture. That way confusion may be minimised or avoided altogether.

 

[atpollard]

Two no's and one yes...

So do you have any sentence that might be:
"In the Reformation theology, Salvation is understood as [10 words or less]."(Preferably one or two...)

Is Salvation Justification?
Is Salvation Imputed Righteousness?
Is Salvation Forgiveness of Sins?

The face of Salvation in the Reformation is getting kinda shifty:

:slomo:

Can we get a subject to predicate solid definition of some kind?

Arsenios

Salvation is what GOD says it is:

[Mat 24:13 NASB] 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
[Mar 16:16 NASB] 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
[Luk 7:50 NASB] 50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
[Luk 8:12 NASB] 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
[Jhn 3:17 NASB] 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
[Jhn 10:9 NASB] 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
[Act 2:21 NASB] 21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
[Act 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
[Act 16:31 NASB] 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
[Rom 5:9-10 NASB] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
[Rom 10:9, 13 NASB] 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ... 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
[Eph 2:5, 8 NASB] 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), ... 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[2Ti 1:9 NASB] 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
[Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Salvation is the Faith to Believe in Jesus Christ. (10 words or less, as requested)

 

[hedrick]

Rom 8:29-30
For whom He did Fore-know,
He also did Fore-ordain to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did Fore-ordain,
them He also Called:
and whom He Called,
them He also Justified:
and whom He Justified,
them He also Glorified.


So then in terms of Reformation Theology and its descendents, where is the Call of God differentiated from the Justification that occurs prior to it as described by Paul above?

And then what does "Them also He Glorified" mean?

How many Christians do you know have been Glorified? Paul was one... And Peter and Stephan... Have you ever met a Glorified by God Christian? Every generation has some...

Arsenios

This passage is actually a pretty good summary, though a couple of steps are left out.

First, the whole process is aimed at restoring the image of God in us, which is salvation. Remember that for Reformed salvation isn't just avoiding hell. It's the whole process of restoring us.

Second, it's based on God's plan and his call, which is also where things start in Reformed theology.

Two things are now omitted. First, in the Reformed ordo salutis, God's decision to save us -- his election / call -- is followed by regeneration and uniting us to Christ. Clearly being in Christ is assumed throughout this passage, but it isn't explicitly put into the sequence. Neither is Christ's death for us, on which I think we all agree the process is based. Second, in Reformed thought, this is received in faith. Faith isn't mentioned here. However Paul says so consistently that justification is by faith that we can presume it's there.

In response we are first justified, then we are glorified.

Glorification has been understood in a number of ways. I believe Paul means it to be something that is already visible. I've noted in the past that the Reformed term "sanctification" isn't a Biblical one. I believe glorification here refers to the actual restoration of the image, which is what happens in sanctification. So we do have both justification and sanctification, with sanctification based on justification.

Here's what Jewett in the Hermeneia commentary says: "The climax ends with the startling claim that all such persons whom God set right were also “glorified.” Since glory was referred to in the opening sentence of this pericope as a future gift, exegetes have struggled to explain the past tense verb in v. 30*. Paul elsewhere refers to the gift of heavenly glory at the parousia, so many scholars regard the aorist verb at this point as anticipatory,237 as an expression of the hymnic source of the passage,238 or as an expression of “an enthusiastic baptismal tradition.”239 The first two options require the final verb, “glorified,” in the climactic sequence to be taken in a different sense from the four prior aorists, which is problematic. I believe the latter option is the most satisfactory, particularly in the light of the stress on the process of formation into the image of God in the earlier verses of this pericope. Believers are in the process of being glorified according to the image of Christ, as in 2 Cor 3:18*, made radiant with righteousness."

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Found this interesting regarding Romans 8:30 -

He uses the past tense for the present time, as the Hebrews use, who sometimes describe something that is to come by using the past tense, to signify the certainty of it: and he also is referring to God's continual working.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/8-30.htm

So there is a certainty (Justification?) and a continued work that appears to be contained in the meaning. Some may well call this continued work "Sanctification" (I am one...)

 

[hedrick]

wait, I already said this. never mind.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Salvation is what GOD says it is:

[Mat 24:13 NASB] 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
[Mar 16:16 NASB] 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
[Luk 7:50 NASB] 50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
[Luk 8:12 NASB] 12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
[Jhn 3:17 NASB] 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
[Jhn 10:9 NASB] 9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
[Act 2:21 NASB] 21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
[Act 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
[Act 16:31 NASB] 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
[Rom 5:9-10 NASB] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
[Rom 10:9, 13 NASB] 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ... 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
[Eph 2:5, 8 NASB] 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), ... 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[2Ti 1:9 NASB] 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
[Tit 3:5 NASB] 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Salvation is the Faith to Believe in Jesus Christ. (10 words or less, as requested)

You've given a selection of verses from new testament books but none from old testament books and maybe defining what salvation means by checking what holy scripture says ought to start with how "salvation" is used in old testament scripture. I know that defining the meaning of "justification" from new testament usage alone is misleading and I think that the same is probably true of the meaning of "salvation".

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wikipedia has something to say about Justification. Let me know if your reaction is "it sounds good to me!"

In Christian theology, justification is God's act of removing the guilt and penalty of sin while at the same time making a sinner righteous through Christ's atoning sacrifice.

The means of justification is an area of significant difference between Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism. In Lutheranism and Calvinism, righteousness from God is viewed as being credited to the sinner's account through faith alone, without works.

Broadly speaking, Catholic, Methodist and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification, which in their view ordinarily occurs at baptism, and final salvation, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God's will (sanctification).

In Catholic doctrine, forgiveness of sin exists, and in the Protestant doctrine, sin is merely "covered" and not imputed. Catholics believe faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man, Protestants believe faith without works can justify man because Christ died for sinners, but that anyone who truly has faith will produce good works as a product of faith, as a good tree produces good fruit. For Lutherans justification can be lost with the loss of faith, for Catholics justification can be lost by mortal sin.

Justification is often seen as being the theological fault line that divided Catholic from the Lutheran and Reformed traditions of Protestantism during the Reformation​

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Catholic teaching places more emphasis in Justification meaning "made righteous" or "made just" and the idea is that not only is there a legal idea in the word "justification" but there is also a real change in the people who are said to be "justified" and that real change is that they become - progressively - more and more just and righteous when they make good use of the graces that God gives to them in their lives. And because Catholic tradition keeps both the idea of legal and of actual change of status in its use of "justification" it follows that Catholic theology also places emphasis on real change in one's way of life and attitudes and words and doings as the actual meaning of "justification".

Thus far, from your OP, I'm not sure that I see much of a difference between Catholic and Protestant thought - with Catholic thought perhaps encompassing "Justification" in both an immediate and ongoing sense (i.e. "being made righteous (or) just" and "(becoming) progressively more and more just"). So I'm not sure where the disagreement or confusion lies. I'd be prepared to accept the above concept as true, except to use "sanctification" to identify that process of becoming "more and more just". That, I think, is a common Protestant understanding of the term.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Broadly speaking, Catholic, Methodist and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification, which in their view ordinarily occurs at baptism, and final salvation, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God's will (sanctification).

In Catholic thought (correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't the above be false, as "sanctification" would not be used, but rather this "lifetime of striving to do God's will" would be an extension of Justification?