Did the Pope speak the truth?

[MennoSota]

A young child came to the Pope and asked if his atheist dad was in heaven. The Pope had this response (watch the video).
Personally, it saddened me to hear the Pope's response as he spoke an untruth to this child.
https://youtu.be/bRbUTfSds0U

 

[NewCreation435]

I don't really want this to turn into a bash the Catholic thread. Obviously there are important and significant differences between Protestants and Catholics. The Pope has obviously good intentions towards this little boy, but was horribly wrong in his conclusion. The Bible doesn't call this father "good", it calls him spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins unless on his deathbed he repented.

 

[atpollard]

No, I don’t think the Pope was accurate in his answer.
Would you have looked the boy in the eye and told him “Nobody is good except God, so your Daddy is now burning in Hell.”
(I don’t think that I could have ... or would have.)

 

[MennoSota]

I don't really want this to turn into a bash the Catholic thread. Obviously there are important and significant differences between Protestants and Catholics. The Pope has obviously good intentions towards this little boy, but was horribly wrong in his conclusion. The Bible doesn't call this father "good", it calls him spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins unless on his deathbed he repented.

Yes, this is a question of theology and the answer he gave this child. I can appreciate the desire to show compassion, but scripture disagrees with the Pope's statement regarding this child's father.

 

[Andrew]

Nvrmnd

 

[Lamb]

The way I took the Pope's response was that the father had his children baptized which suggested that perhaps he wasn't as much of an Atheist as he claimed because why would an Athiest permit his children to be baptized? The ones I know all balk at it and even condemn the practice. So what the pope is saying is that the father might have had some faith in God.

 

[Josiah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEchg1KhmTY


On the one hand, Pope Francis is notorious (even in Catholic circles) for speaking "off the cuff" (Catholic have somewhat the same issue with Pope Francis that Americans have with President Trump, lol).... AND there are times when Francis speaks PASTORALLY rather than THEOLOGICALLY (the two should not be different, I agree).



MY opinion:

I agree with Lamm above.

Additionally, God has promised that where faith is, salvation is. And thus, where it is lacking, heaven is not the final destination. But on the other hand, God is not limited by... anything. I believe that God is sovereign and is Lord of all, and thus if God chooses to welcome one who did not have faith on Earth, we cannot tell Him He can't and we can 't forbid Him from doing that. There's always that POSSIBILITY as long as we believe that God is sovereign, but it's questionable to seemingly promise such (or even imply that) as seems the case here.

In my experience, popular Catholicism is extremely fuzzy and confused when it comes to the whole issue of soteriology - and this is simply a product of that, even at the top. I don't question the Pope's heart here but he MAY, in part, be reflecting the general confusion of Catholics on the very topic on which we should be most clear. It MAY be that's what we see going on in this situation.



- Josiah

 

[Pedrito]

I would really like to see MoreCoffee's opinion on the matter, and his reason(s) for it.

So I issue the invitation to him.

And thank him in advance.

 

[MennoSota]

No, I don’t think the Pope was accurate in his answer.
Would you have looked the boy in the eye and told him “Nobody is good except God, so your Daddy is now burning in Hell.”
(I don’t think that I could have ... or would have.)

I wouldn't have turned the boys question into a public opportunity to speak incorrectly about God's holiness and our corruption. I also would not imply that the children's baptism saved the children and justified them before God.
The fact is, if the dad remained in atheism at his death, then he was not reconciled with God, but stood in opposition to God and His Kingdom. The child needs and deserves God-ward council that explains God's holiness and man's inability to attain holiness on his own merit. That truth will be painful to bear for a child (and for anyone), but lying to the child to spare his feelings is worse.

 

[NewCreation435]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEchg1KhmTY


On the one hand, Pope Francis is notorious (even in Catholic circles) for speaking "off the cuff" (Catholic have somewhat the same issue with Pope Francis that Americans have with President Trump, lol).... AND there are times when Francis speaks PASTORALLY rather than THEOLOGICALLY (the two should not be different, I agree).



MY opinion:

I agree with Lamm above.

Additionally, God has promised that where faith is, salvation is. And thus, where it is lacking, heaven is not the final destination. But on the other hand, God is not limited by... anything. I believe that God is sovereign and is Lord of all, and thus if God chooses to welcome one who did not have faith on Earth, we cannot tell Him He can't and we can 't forbid Him from doing that. There's always that POSSIBILITY as long as we believe that God is sovereign, but it's questionable to seemingly promise such (or even imply that) as seems the case here.

In my experience, popular Catholicism is extremely fuzzy and confused when it comes to the whole issue of soteriology - and this is simply a product of that, even at the top. I don't question the Pope's heart here but he MAY, in part, be reflecting the general confusion of Catholics on the very topic on which we should be most clear. It MAY be that's what we see going on in this situation.



- Josiah

I am assume they are the same except for Trump's tendency to the sleeping around with porn stars and his cursing like a sailor and lying and name calling and everything else. . . .

 

[Albion]

I am assume they are the same except for Trump's tendency to the sleeping around with porn stars and his cursing like a sailor and lying and name calling and everything else. . . .

Wow. Even a thread that is explicitly about the Pope has to be turned into one more anti-Trump rant.

 

[psalms 91]

Wow. Even a thread that is explicitly about the Pope has to be turned into one more anti-Trump rant.

Surprised? Is there anything there thats not factual?

 

[MennoSota]

Wow. Even a thread that is explicitly about the Pope has to be turned into one more anti-Trump rant.

It's actually about the theology proposed by the pope that states:
1) an atheist is good because he had his children baptized.
2) God sees the man as good, even though he had no faith.
3) God receives the man into heaven because the goodness of his actions in baptizing his children outweigh any bad the man had done.

 

[Andrew]

It's actually about the theology proposed by the pope that states:
1) an atheist is good because he had his children baptized.
2) God sees the man as good, even though he had no faith.
3) God receives the man into heaven because the goodness of his actions in baptizing his children outweigh any bad the man had done.

So you are passing judgment on his soul as our merciful God himself? Is that justified by scripture to disagree with what that Pope told the baptised (by his father) child? Many call themselves Christiana but is that true in THEIR heart? Same goes with Atheist. Any thing with salvation of others done in ones part in the name of Jesus is not against Christ nor his Father.

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[MennoSota]

So you are passing judgment on his soul as our merciful God himself? Is that justified by scripture to disagree with what that Pope told the baptised (by his father) child? Many call themselves Christiana but is that true in THEIR heart? Same goes with Atheist. Any thing with salvation of others done in ones part in the name of Jesus is not against Christ nor his Father.

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Hoffman, re-read what I said and get off your faux soapbox.
Does an atheist believe in God? What does God say about the one who says there is no God?
Do you agree with the Pope's statement that a human is good because they have their children baptized in the Roman church? Does having a child baptized overrule all other actions a person does? Does God adopt a person by the weight of their good works as opposed to their bad works? What scripture do you use to make your case? This is a theology forum. Use theology to make your case.

 

[Albion]

Surprised? Is there anything there thats not factual?

Yes indeed. But that isn't the point. The HateTrump campaign ought at least to be confined to threads that are ABOUT that subject. Should we have to deal with the sour grapes from November 2016 every time someone feels like inserting such into any thread, even if it is clearly offtopic?

 

[psalms 91]

Your right, back to topic then

 

[popsthebuilder]

I don't really want this to turn into a bash the Catholic thread. Obviously there are important and significant differences between Protestants and Catholics. The Pope has obviously good intentions towards this little boy, but was horribly wrong in his conclusion. The Bible doesn't call this father "good", it calls him spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins unless on his deathbed he repented.

This is uncalled for.

How does one conflate lack of belief with knowing unbelief?

They are very different.

One who hasn't heard to the point of believing is not damned to eternal destruction, but is wieghed against their words and actions in this life; as all are. Self proclaimed Christian's will be weighed more strictly than those who have never claimed such a state or closeness to GOD.



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[Andrew]

Hoffman, re-read what I said and get off your faux soapbox.
Does an atheist believe in God? What does God say about the one who says there is no God?
Do you agree with the Pope's statement that a human is good because they have their children baptized in the Roman church? Does having a child baptized overrule all other actions a person does? Does God adopt a person by the weight of their good works as opposed to their bad works? What scripture do you use to make your case? This is a theology forum. Use theology to make your case.

That atheist will be judged at the white throne of God, God will determine his faith and his fate not us. Why would an Atheist baptize a child unless their was some truth to it? I don't presume damnation of anyone, it's not our decision, thats my point.

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[MennoSota]

That atheist will be judged at the white throne of God, God will determine his faith and his fate not us. Why would an Atheist baptize a child unless their was some truth to it? I don't presume damnation of anyone, it's not our decision, thats my point.

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Why? Because his wife or family were Roman catholic and he chose to appease them. I know many people who do things out of family pressure and not out of personal faith.
Second, I am not presuming. I am stating that it is deceptive to tell the child that God thought his dad was good and therefore the child's dad will be in heaven. The Pope doesn't know that. Secondly, the Bible doesn't back up the Pope at all.
What does scripture tell us about God and his means of reconciliation?