Credobaptists - What about those with disabilities and baptism?

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MennoSota

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Yes, we are cleansed through baptism. In 1 Corinthians Paul speaks of baptism in more than one spot...did you not notice that?
There is no reference to baptism in the passage you quoted. If a person is simply going to pick a couple sentences and then force their dogma into the sentence then that person can manufacture any doctrine they want. This is precisely how cults and Muslims create their teachings from the Bible. I would not think you would desire to do the same thing with the Bible.
 

Lamb

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There is no reference to baptism in the passage you quoted. If a person is simply going to pick a couple sentences and then force their dogma into the sentence then that person can manufacture any doctrine they want. This is precisely how cults and Muslims create their teachings from the Bible. I would not think you would desire to do the same thing with the Bible.

The verse has been seen as baptismal since the days of the disciples. It was questioned only in modern times.
 

MennoSota

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The verse has been seen as baptismal since the days of the disciples. It was questioned only in modern times.
No. The apostles never taught such a thing.
Using the verse as you have is no different than other groups who cut and paste the Bible to make up false doctrines. Please don't do the same.
A false interpretation is false whether it's been espoused for a week or milleniums. Gnosticism is nearly as old as Christianity. It doesn't make it correct because Gnostics continue to preach their heresy.
Please don't follow such poor hermeneutics.
 

Josiah

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No. The apostles never taught such a thing.

Quote any of the Apostles saying what you dogmatically insist:

"We canst NOT do anything unless it is clearly and repeatedly illustrated as having been done in the NT."
"Thou canst NOT baptize any until they hath celebrated their Xth birthday!"
"Thou canst NOT baptize any until they hath choose Jesus as their personal savior!"
"Thou canst NOT baptize any until they have wept buckets of tears in repentance!"
"Thou canst NOT baptize any until they hath publically proven their choice of Jesus as their Savior!"
"Baptism does nothing and Jesus and the Apostles should not have made such a big deal over it!"
"Baptism is a legalistic reaction to faith."

Since you hold we can't do anything unless it is clearly exampled in the NT, quote the verses where it is clear that women received Communion, where a Gentile administered Baptism, where Communion was celebrated with little cut up pieces of white bread and little plastic cups of grape juice, where Christians posted on the internet, where Christians used the NT.



A blessed Holy Week to all....



- Josiah




.



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ImaginaryDay2

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Let’s all be held to the same standard.
Where is the verse that states “God is at work in baptism“?

The same place as the one that says "Baptism now admits you into our assembly (after your testimony, of course) - there's coffee in the foyer afterward". While we celebrate the baptism of anyone, and all love coffee (most of us), God is not impotent in baptism.
 

Lamb

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Let’s all be held to the same standard.
Where is the verse that states “God is at work in baptism“?

Colossians 2:11-12 Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
 

atpollard

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Colossians 2:11-12 Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.


I don’t have the time or inclination to look up your original post, but I believe your response to a proof text was something along the lines of “that didn’t include the exact phrase “God is at work in baptism” and it can be interpreted more than one way. ... or something close to that.

So just returning the off-hand dismissal before leaving this waste of time again.
I just wanted to point out a double standard for “proof”.
 

Pedrito

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meluckycharms in Post #79:
The first century church was non-denominational.

But Satan was already planting seeds.

1 Corinthians 1:11,12: “11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.


1 Corinthians 3:3,4: 3 [emphasis added] “For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


Can loyalty to human religious organisations be seen as carnal?

Can loyalty to human-devised doctrine sets be seen as carnal?



Could starting with the Bible and moving forward, as opposed to starting with doctrine and moving backwards to retrofit, lead to the wonderful, inarguable, unequivocal truth?
 

Lamb

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I don’t have the time or inclination to look up your original post, but I believe your response to a proof text was something along the lines of “that didn’t include the exact phrase “God is at work in baptism” and it can be interpreted more than one way. ... or something close to that.

So just returning the off-hand dismissal before leaving this waste of time again.
I just wanted to point out a double standard for “proof”.

I wasn't giving you an off-hand dismissal. I was showing how baptism is also God's work through that verse just like faith is God's work and being raised from the dead is God's work.
 

Pedrito

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Post #46:
1 Corinthians 1:16, "I did baptize the household of Stephanas" Where does it state, "And every member of said family had first documented their faith in Christ as their Savior?" How does this verse support your apologetic of "EVERY baptism in the NT was of people who clearly were already Christians?" And all the other arugments you've made from tradition, from "EVERY example...." ?????

From Post #80:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," Paul said to the jail keeper in Philippi.

Readers note:

The baptism of households in apostolic times (said by some churches to mean every single person in the household (which would include live-in helpers), and recognised as being done with immediacy), is used by those churches to justify the baptism of babies in our day. Yet those very churches who use that arguement, do not baptise whole households in the way they say the apostles did.

That has been pointed out before.

==============================================================================================

Consider a Seeker looking into the claims of Christianity. Let’s say that seeker notices the above inconsistency within some churches of Christendom. Could that Seeker be forgiven for wondering, based on that inconsistency, just which of the teachings promulgated by those particular organisations can be considered trustworthy? If any?

And how might that affect that Seeker’s desire to keep searching for the True God within the religion labelled “Christian”?

==============================================================================================

(But it doesn’t really matter anyway, does it? If a Seeker is put off by perceived dishonesty, they mustn’t have been one of the “elect” in the first place. Must they? (According to some, that is.))
 

Lamb

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Post #46:


From Post #80:


Readers note:

The baptism of households in apostolic times (said by some churches to mean every single person in the household (which would include live-in helpers), and recognised as being done with immediacy), is used by those churches to justify the baptism of babies in our day. Yet those very churches who use that arguement, do not baptise whole households in the way they say the apostles did.

That has been pointed out before.


A history lesson here needs to be made on what "household" was in biblical times and how the unit was considered and not the individual. Also it needs to be known of how the servants and slaved followed what beliefs the "head" held to be true which is far different from any type of paid servant you will find in modern times. This distinction is known by most people but obviously seems to be confused by some.

I don't personally have any slaves or servants in my household. It consists of myself and my husband and we're both baptized. There shouldn't be any problem in understanding how households were under the head during biblical times and how they were all baptized once the head believed and then taught to believe in the one true God. Baptism and teaching go hand in hand.
 

Albion

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Readers note:

The baptism of households in apostolic times (said by some churches to mean every single person in the household (which would include live-in helpers), and recognised as being done with immediacy), is used by those churches to justify the baptism of babies in our day. Yet those very churches who use that arguement, do not baptise whole households in the way they say the apostles did.

That has been pointed out before.


If so, it would have been as fallacious as saying it here and now is. :)

No, we do not baptize anyone against his will. That's why, when the question is occasionally asked why Christians do not simply go out into crowds on the street and
throw water on everyone--if baptism means so much to us--that we think it is a nutty question asked by someone who must not understand Christian baptism.

Nor do the relevant Bible verses that have been cited many times inform us that every last household in which an adult was baptized also had all the members of the family baptized as well.

What we know is that in particular households all members were baptized, which shows us that baptizing young children (including the five year olds that you like to call babies in order to belittle the baptism of young children) did occur and that it is, therefore, proper.
 

MennoSota

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But it doesn't really matter anyway, does it? If a Seeker is put off by perceived dishonesty, they mustn’t have been one of the “elect” in the first place. Must they? (According to some, that is.))
If they are chosen by God for adoption, God will work this out. Your error in thought is that you think humans seek God and choose him by a logical, rational process. However, the Bible tells us that no one seeks God. While God may reveal the logic and rational of his gracious justification, it is not humans who resolve the conflict. God resolves the conflict and the rebellion within our hearts.
100% God, Pedrito, 100% God.
 

MennoSota

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A history lesson here needs to be made on what "household" was in biblical times and how the unit was considered and not the individual. Also it needs to be known of how the servants and slaved followed what beliefs the "head" held to be true which is far different from any type of paid servant you will find in modern times. This distinction is known by most people but obviously seems to be confused by some.

I don't personally have any slaves or servants in my household. It consists of myself and my husband and we're both baptized. There shouldn't be any problem in understanding how households were under the head during biblical times and how they were all baptized once the head believed and then taught to believe in the one true God. Baptism and teaching go hand in hand.
You are avoiding Pedrito's point. Household can be anyone in your family structure. You didn't answer the apparent fallacy in your denominational practice.
 

MennoSota

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If so, it would have been as fallacious as saying it here and now is. :)

No, we do not baptize anyone against his will.
You just made an argument against infant baptism.
You cannot know the will of an infant. Yet, you baptize them anyway.
I suggest you very much baptize people against their will. How many images of traumatized infants do you need?
 

atpollard

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No, we do not baptize anyone against his will.
How does a 6 month old communicate their ‘will’ one way or the other?

Nor do the relevant Bible verses that have been cited many times inform us that every last household in which an adult was baptized also had all the members of the family baptized as well.
Thank you for that refreshing statement of honesty. (Thumbs up)

What we know is that in particular households all members were baptized, which shows us that baptizing young children (including the five year olds that you like to call babies in order to belittle the baptism of young children) did occur and that it is, therefore, proper.
Was the remark about 5 year olds directed at a specific statement of Pedrito’s ? If not, then even speculating that there were 5 year olds is speculation since scripture is silent on specific ages of almost everyone and especially of ‘households’.

That said, I would like to offer that I have no objection to the baptism of a 5 year old subject to all of the same conditions for any adult. They have heard the Gospel, are becoming a disciple, believe in Jesus, and desire to be baptized. Furthermore, I would expect God to honor his promise from Acts 2 and grant them the Holy Spirit as a helper and a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance.

It is the baptism of children under 1 year old (true babies) where I have issues accepting that the baby has heard, understood and wants to be baptized. They may or may not ... only God knows a heart ... but the baby has clearly not articulated a desire to be baptized or even assent to the process. So I cannot say for certain that they should be (per scripture).
 

Josiah

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You are avoiding Pedrito's point. Household can be anyone in your family structure.

Then there goes one of the apologetics that Anbaptists/Baptists use: "All the cases of baptism that just happen to be recorded in the Bible are of those FIRST who attained the age of X, FIRST chose Jesus as their personal savior and gave adequate public proof of such, FIRST wept an adequate number of buckets of tears in repentance, FIRST expressed their will and desire to be baptized and FIRST publicly stated that baptism does nothing." It's not true, is it? Even if any Anabaptist/Baptist actually thought that apologetic was in ANY sense valid (which none due but use it anyway). There goes the whole ANTI-PAEDObaptism dogma.

As I previously (often) stated, of course, none can know if ANY in those households was under the age of X (even if Anabaptists/Baptists would tell us what age that is, which they won't). But then those who differ with them don't use the rubric that we all reject - that we can only do what is clearly and consistently illustrated as done in the examples of things that happen to be recorded in the Bible.' That's the rubric that Anabaptists/Baptists use (but regard as silly) - not the one paedobaptists use.




atpollard said:
It is the baptism of children under 1 year old (true babies) where I have issues accepting that the baby has heard, understood and wants to be baptized. They may or may not ... only God knows a heart ... but the baby has clearly not articulated a desire to be baptized or even assent to the process. So I cannot say for certain that they should be (per scripture).


Understood, I just don't know of any verse that says, "Thou canst NOT teach and baptize people until it can be ascertained by people whether said receiver consents to it." Would you take your child to church if they'd rather go to a movie? Would you tell your child he's going to Sunday School in the same way as you would that he's going to secular day school? I wonder too because of the FEW things parents in the OT were COMMANDED to do vis-a-vis children is to circumcise their boys. When they are babies. Have you ever witnessed that? I have.... and I was more than a bit taken-aback: it hurts, there's blood, there's LOUD crying... it is NOT (I repeat, NOT) the desire of the baby boy. But in the Old Covenant, God MANDATED it. To babies. How does that "jibe" with the thought that God cant use something if the human doesn't consent, that we are forbidden to do things for our little children if they don't articulate consent in a way we can understand? I wonder about your whole premise, my friend.

Being a monergist, I believe that NO ONE EVER consents to anything of God prior to God using His means to convert them.... God ALWAYS works against human will in justification. In Calvinist theology, how does natural man (DEAD and in TOTAL DEPRAVITY) first consent and express his will BEFORE God can bless him and do anything for him? I constantly read things Reformed Baptists write and say and wonder how in the world they reconcile these views SO opposite.





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MennoSota

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Then there goes one of the apologetics that Anbaptists/Baptists use: "All the cases of baptism that just happen to be recorded in the Bible are of those FIRST who attained the age of X, FIRST chose Jesus as their personal savior and gave adequate public proof of such, FIRST wept an adequate number of buckets of tears in repentance, FIRST expressed their will and desire to be baptized and FIRST publicly stated that baptism does nothing." It's not true, is it? Even if any Anabaptist/Baptist actually thought that apologetic was in ANY sense valid (which none due but use it anyway). There goes the whole ANTI-PAEDObaptism dogma.

As I previously (often) stated, of course, none can know if ANY in those households was under the age of X (even if Anabaptists/Baptists would tell us what age that is, which they won't). But then those who differ with them don't use the rubric that we all reject - that we can only do what is clearly and consistently illustrated as done in the examples of things that happen to be recorded in the Bible.' That's the rubric that Anabaptists/Baptists use (but regard as silly) - not the one paedobaptists use.







Understood, I just don't know of any verse that says, "Thou canst NOT teach and baptize people until it can be ascertained by people whether said receiver consents to it." Would you take your child to church if they'd rather go to a movie? Would you tell your child he's going to Sunday School in the same way as you would that he's going to secular day school? I wonder too because of the FEW things parents in the OT were COMMANDED to do vis-a-vis children is to circumcise their boys. When they are babies. Have you ever witnessed that? I have.... and I was more than a bit taken-aback: it hurts, there's blood, there's LOUD crying... it is NOT (I repeat, NOT) the desire of the baby boy. But in the Old Covenant, God MANDATED it. To babies. How does that "jibe" with the thought that God cant use something if the human doesn't consent, that we are forbidden to do things for our little children if they don't articulate consent in a way we can understand? I wonder about your whole premise, my friend.

Being a monergist, I believe that NO ONE EVER consents to anything of God prior to God using His means to convert them.... God ALWAYS works against human will in justification. In Calvinist theology, how does natural man (DEAD and in TOTAL DEPRAVITY) first consent and express his will BEFORE God can bless him and do anything for him? I constantly read things Reformed Baptists write and say and wonder how in the world they reconcile these views SO opposite.





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You are a broken record arguing with yourself, Josiah. How many times do I need to repeat it back to you?
I suppose the answer is: Everytime you bring up your mythical argument created by you to avoid the text.
 

atpollard

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Albion says: “No, we do not baptize anyone against his will.”
Josiah says: “Understood, I just don’t know of any verse that says, ‘Thou canst NOT teach and baptize people until it can be ascertained by people whether said receiver consents to it.’”

So Albion may not baptize anyone against their will, but Josiah sees no scriptural prohibition on baptizing people without their consent (and thus potentially contrary to their will).

I have one rule for all ages ... the biblical commands in scripture to “believe” and “be baptized”. It is others who seem to have different rules for baptism based on some undeclared age.
 

Josiah

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I have one rule for all ages ... the biblical commands in scripture to “believe” and “be baptized”. It is others who seem to have different rules for baptism based on some undeclared age.


The biblical command says NOTHING about age.... and no one IMPOSED such via radical eisegesis flowing from their synergism... until a few German Anabaptists in the 16th Century. And yes, they've always refused to tell anyone what this age is, so it remands undeclared, undisclosed, mysterious - the age of X; the Anbaptist position is that Scripture dogmatically forbids those under that age from receiving baptism.


Yes, one of the Anabaptist/Baptist apologetics for their new invented dogma is that the word "and" (kai) dogmatically mandates chronological sequence, thus "repent and be baptized" mandates that FIRST the person must choose Jesus as their personal Savior and give adequate public proof of that, THEN - after that has been completed, the chronological sequence after that - THEN the prohibition from baptism is lifted. But of course, they are wrong (as they themselves believe).

The other Anabaptist/Baptist apologetic is that we are forbidden to do anything that is not clearly and consistently illustrated as having been done in the NT and because every case of baptism that happens to be recorded in the NT is of those who had FIRST celebrated their Xth birthday, FIRST chose Jesus as their personal savior and gave adequate public proof of that, FIRST wept X number of buckets of tears in repentance, FIRST declared baptism does nothing, FIRST publicly stated their desire to be baptized.... THEREFORE we must require that and can do no other. But of course, they are wrong (as they themselves believe).




- Josiah




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