Some Lutherans don't believe Jesus is God

[MennoSota]

Having quoted Lutheran professors and leadership directing Lutheran Seminaries in Philadelphia, Texas and St Paul, it is not gossip to accurately state that some Lutherans don't believe in the diety of Christ or his virgin birth.
It is also accurate to say that these seminaries are producing pastoral candidates who do not believe Jesus is God. Furthermore, it is accurate to say that there are Lutheran pastors filling pulpits and they do not believe Jesus is God.
Certainly other denominations also have such heresies in their midst.
What will common Lutherans do to remove heretic leadership?

 

[Josiah]

Is the ELCA not Lutherans?

No, it is not. The ELCA is a geopolitical/economic/legal entity - it is not a person, it doesn't have a soul, it cannot have faith. There are perhaps 72 million Lutherans in the world and not one of them is the ELCA (all of them are people).

Yes, the ELCA is a denomination which owns and operates several thousand congregations in the USA, as well as a plethora of other institutions and agencies (none of them being people - no one owns a person in the USA anymore).

To argue that the ELCA is Lutherans is as illogical as insisting that Donald Trump IS Americans (worse, since at least Donald Trump is a person - like all Americans are; your logic is more akin to saying "Bank of America is Americans."

 

[Josiah]

Having quoted Lutheran professors and leadership directing Lutheran Seminaries in Philadelphia, Texas and St Paul, it is not gossip to accurately state that some Lutherans don't believe in the diety of Christ or his virgin birth.
It is also accurate to say that these seminaries are producing pastoral candidates who do not believe Jesus is God. Furthermore, it is accurate to say that there are Lutheran pastors filling pulpits and they do not believe Jesus is God.
Certainly other denominations also have such heresies in their midst.
What will common Lutherans do to remove heretic leadership?

The ELCA owns and operates about 9,000 congregations in the USA. Together, those 9000 congregations claim about 3.5 million baptized member (active membership is about half that). It has it own polity on ecclesiatical matters, and such is only accessible by the member congregations of the ELCA. No one here at CH is a member congregation of the ELCA, or even just one member of an ELCA parish.

It might help you to know that while the ELCA operates more parishes than any other Lutheran denomination in the USA, it's not the only one. The Lutherans here are all associated with a congregation belonging to the LCMS (I believe; not totally sure about that). Now, I'd have no way to PROVE that every one of the 2.1 million folks associated with some parish belonging to the LCMS are in total compliance with every point in the 648 pages of the Book of Concord - I would not be shocked if YOU proved one (or even 5) of those 2.1 million were in conflict with something in those 648 pages. But here is where I find your "logic" flawed - that doesn't prove that ALL 2.1 million folks are heretics.


I suspect that if one were to WASTE a whole lot of time, they could probably find some unorthodox folk who are associated with some parish owned and operated by some denomination. I strongly suspect that's true in your denomination, too. I suggest you consider the proverb, "Physician heal thyself." Maybe after you have PROVEN that every person or even just every pastor in the Reformed and Presbyterian denominations (beyond your own) are absolutely in perfect concord with every point in every official document of every Reformed/Calvinist/Presbyterian denomination.... then maybe you can start pointing fingers at others? Just a thought....


But again, I'm not a parish of the ELCA. I have no authority or ability to do anything about what the ELCA does (anymore than you have, or anymore than you have in the United Presbyterian Church in the USA). I can't dictate what Nigeria does because - well - I'm not a Nigerian, I'm not in Nigeria, I'm not a Nigerian citizen. I would have to be a parish of the ELCA to have any ability to "correct" what MY denomination does. The same with your denomination. I can choose to not join a parish operated by the ELCA - and I have - but that of course don't do anything to "remove" folk who don't seem to be in full and complete concord with the Book of Concord.


BTW, just to save you more wasted time.... it could well be that there is some guy associated with a parish operated by some Lutheran denomination that voted for Trump - but it doesn't mean Trump is Lutherans or that Lutherans are Trump. There may well be some such guy who insists he was abducted by aliens who did inappropriate experiments on him .... or that is 500 pounds overweight.... or is blind. I admit it.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Of course there are more Lutheran synods than ELCA. That doesn't change the facts I provided.

 

[Josiah]

Nor does it change what I said in posts 2 and 3.

When you've made all the members and ministers in the Presbyterian Church in the USA in perfect concord with every confession and document in Calvinism to your satisfaction, then you might have a point in your opening post.

Until then, I think we're done here.

 

[Josiah]

dp

 

[Lamb]

There are websites and groups that call out the errors of some of the teachings that are within the ELCA. Pastors from other synods have tried to reach out to warn of the impending threat of false teachings (you can search this out too using google).

There are many members within the ELCA who hold to the truth of the bible and are hoping that the embarrassment of some that are going astray just disappear. Most of those have been members for a long time or their church is the one they've gone to their entire lives (some synods merged into the ELCA years ago). Those types of members won't leave because their personal congregation hasn't changed in their beliefs or worship. I know of a few so I speak from experience.

What can we do? Pray.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

nm

 

[Josiah]

What can we do? Pray.

We can do the exact same thing that MennoSota can do about wayward folk in Reformed denominations (such as the Presbyterian Church in the USA). Which is 1) pray and 2) Don't join a parish owned and operated by that denomination if documented heresy is welcomed by the congregations of that denomination.

When our friend perfects all Reformed denominations, bringing all parishes and ministers and members into perfect concord with all Reformed confessions and statements, then he has a case.... until then, we seem done here.

 

[NewCreation435]

This is a sign of what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths"

Not that I have anything against Lutherans, but I think the problem in American pulpits (I can't speak to other countries) is that materialism, secularism and hedonism has crept in and corrupted the preaching and teaching of God's word. The problem is much bigger than just Lutheran churches. The problem can be solved in one day if the members of these churches voice their complains and get rid of these preachers who don't hold to the truth of God's Word

 

[Josiah]

This is a sign of what it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths"

Not that I have anything against Lutherans, but I think the problem in American pulpits (I can't speak to other countries) is that materialism, secularism and hedonism has crept in and corrupted the preaching and teaching of God's word. The problem is much bigger than just Lutheran churches. The problem can be solved in one day if the members of these churches voice their complains and get rid of these preachers who don't hold to the truth of God's Word

And I think we should focus on our OWN parish (and perhaps denomination) rather than taking cheap shots at others.... We MAY have some means and ability to do something about our home.... perhaps not so much of someone else's.

Yes, I agree.... sloppy and bad theology is spreading like a plague - in ALL of Christianity, and IMO this is primarily because of the rise of relativism and pragmatism (increasingly folks don't care about Truth - or even believe such exists). I decry this (and I'm sure MennoSota and most here at CH do, too). But I think we can effect that as we address those we know, those in our own family and church and denomination.... I find it, well..... not helpful at best... to shout "But those ANGLICANS - what a MESS that all them is, what a HORRIBLE, HERETICAL bunch that denomination is!" Maybe we should spend a little time looking in the mirror, dealing with our own stuff.

And I might add: Perfection among Christians (and their parishes, and the denominations of parishes) is hard to come by.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Nor does it change what I said in posts 2 and 3.

When you've made all the members and ministers in the Presbyterian Church in the USA in perfect concord with every confession and document in Calvinism to your satisfaction, then you might have a point in your opening post.

Until then, I think we're done here.

We aren't talking about one person here or there in a local parish. We're talking about people who are leading seminaries and churches. Leadership who deny the deity of Christ and train others to deny the deity of Christ. This is a serious heresy within Lutheranism and you wish to marginalize it and push it under the rug. Why? Why not stand up against it and cast the entire synod out of the larger Lutheran community?
Revelation 2:18-29
[18]“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Thyatira. This is the message from the Son of God, whose eyes are like flames of fire, whose feet are like polished bronze:
[19]“I know all the things you do. I have seen your love, your faith, your service, and your patient endurance. And I can see your constant improvement in all these things.
[20]“But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols.
[21]I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality.
[22]“Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn away from her evil deeds.
[23]I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve.
[24]“But I also have a message for the rest of you in Thyatira who have not followed this false teaching (‘deeper truths,’ as they call them—depths of Satan, actually). I will ask nothing more of you
[25]except that you hold tightly to what you have until I come.
[26]To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, To them I will give authority over all the nations.
[27]They will rule the nations with an iron rod *** and smash them like clay pots.
[28]They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
[29]“Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.

 

[Josiah]

We aren't talking about one person here or there in a local parish. We're talking about people who are leading seminaries and churches. Leadership who deny the deity of Christ and train others to deny the deity of Christ. This is a serious heresy within Lutheranism and you wish to marginalize it and push it under the rug. Why? Why not stand up against it and cast the entire synod out of the larger Lutheran community?

Frankly, I don't know ANYTHING of what you say has even one ounce of truth in it. Sounds like entirely, wholly unsubstantiated rumor from just one person on the internet.

And your point about a supposed person distancing himself from one of the Atonement Theories (the Vicarious or Substitutional one) - well, Lutherans don't endorse OR condemn ANY of the theories... Luther (like Calvin) liked the Christus Victor one, but our Confessions endorse and condemn NONE of them (I view ALL of them as partly true and partly inadequate). EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE, just saying some guy doesn't buy into one of the atonement theories doesn't make him a heretic (or even unlutheran). The rest of your stuff ... well, I don't even know if it's true. I DO know of some official Resolutions of the ELCA (you didn't mention anything official or denominational).

I'm not a member of the ELCA. I'm certainly not a parish of the ELCA. The ELCA does have processes for correction, but only parishes of the ELCA can access them or do them. That leaves everyone here at CH out of it.

You have a point about CHRISTIANITY (likely including your own denomination): some sloppy, unorthodox (and occasionally nonexistent) theology going around.... lots of relativism and pragmatism and occasionally materialism. No one denies this is sadly an increasing problem in western modern Christianity (especially Protestantism). But you chose to just take cheap, entirely unsubstantiated shots at one denomination. One in which no one here belongs and no one here has any process to correct - even if the rumor is true.

My suggestion: Look at your OWN church (it likely is not perfect in all things).... There are ways you can act in your OWN church..... avoid gossip.... avoid cheap shots at OTHERS. There's that old addage: When you point a finger at others, you're probably pointing 3 back at yourself.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Frankly, I don't know ANYTHING of what you say has even one ounce of truth in it. Sounds like entirely, wholly unsubstantiated rumor from just one person on the internet.

And your point about a supposed person distancing himself from one of the Atonement Theories (the Vicarious or Substitutional one) - well, Lutherans don't endorse OR condemn ANY of the theories... Luther (like Calvin) liked the Christus Victor one, but our Confessions endorse and condemn NONE of them (I view ALL of them as partly true and partly inadequate). EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE, just saying some guy doesn't buy into one of the atonement theories doesn't make him a heretic (or even unlutheran). The rest of your stuff ... well, I don't even know if it's true. I DO know of some official Resolutions of the ELCA (you didn't mention anything official or denominational).

I'm not a member of the ELCA. I'm certainly not a parish of the ELCA. The ELCA does have processes for correction, but only parishes of the ELCA can access them or do them. That leaves everyone here at CH out of it.

You have a point about CHRISTIANITY (likely including your own denomination): some sloppy, unorthodox (and occasionally nonexistent) theology going around.... lots of relativism and pragmatism and occasionally materialism. No one denies this is sadly an increasing problem in western modern Christianity (especially Protestantism). But you chose to just take cheap, entirely unsubstantiated shots at one denomination. One in which no one here belongs and no one here has any process to correct - even if the rumor is true.

My suggestion: Look at your OWN church (it likely is not perfect in all things).... There are ways you can act in your OWN church..... avoid gossip.... avoid cheap shots at OTHERS. There's that old addage: When you point a finger at others, you're probably pointing 3 back at yourself.



- Josiah

Are you afraid to look at what Luther Seminary is teaching its students? Are you afraid to hear what these seminarians turned pastors are teaching the congregants? Turning your back on them won't stop the heresy.
To see what can be done, look to the Southern Baptist Conference that has repented of its liberalism and sought God. Former members like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter are distraught, but the SBC seminaries are producing pastors who honor Christ and teach biblical truth. Read what Albert Mohler has to say sometime.
I won't turn my back on heresy and say look elsewhere. Sin in the camp leads to the church losing God's blessing. We must stand on God's word and lovingly call people to repentance as well as cast out the wolves in our midst.

 

[Albion]

Are you afraid to look at what Luther Seminary is teaching its students? Are you afraid to hear what these seminarians turned pastors are teaching the congregants? Turning your back on them won't stop the heresy.
To see what can be done, look to the Southern Baptist Conference that has repented of its liberalism and sought God. Former members like Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter are distraught, but the SBC seminaries are producing pastors who honor Christ and teach biblical truth. Read what Albert Mohler has to say sometime.
I won't turn my back on heresy and say look elsewhere. Sin in the camp leads to the church losing God's blessing. We must stand on God's word and lovingly call people to repentance as well as cast out the wolves in our midst.

You won't turn your back????

From what I've gleaned from your posts, your approach is to stand on the sidelines, sniping. You scorn church membership. Denomination is treated as something evil. SO while you talk like Josiah ought to clean up the seminaries of some church other than his own and you praise the Southern Baptist Convention for getting a grip on some bad trends developing in its midst, you are, from all that I can tell, comfortably free from having to do anything yourself in any such situation, secure in the knowledge that "my hands are clean; it's not my problem."

 

[MennoSota]

You won't turn your back????

From what I've gleaned from your posts, your approach is to stand on the sidelines, sniping. You scorn church membership. Denomination is treated as something evil. SO while you talk like Josiah ought to clean up the seminaries of some church other than his own and you praise the Southern Baptist Convention for getting a grip on some bad trends developing in its midst, you are, from all that I can tell, comfortably free from having to do anything yourself in any such situation, secure in the knowledge that "my hands are clean; it's not my problem."

No sniping. When I meet someone who claims to be a Christian, but teaches heresy, I point out there heresy. If they refuse to listen, they have God to talk to.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

We aren't talking about one person here or there in a local parish. We're talking about people who are leading seminaries and churches. Leadership who deny the deity of Christ and train others to deny the deity of Christ. This is a serious heresy within Lutheranism and you wish to marginalize it and push it under the rug. Why? Why not stand up against it and cast the entire synod out of the larger Lutheran community?

Because leaders of seminaries and churches are not Synods. And, besides, a Synod (in this case the ELCA) cannot cast out itself. Neither can the PCUSA cast out itself for certain positions on ordination that are up to individual churches to decide on, and don't jibe with conservative members of that denomination.

 

[Lamb]

No sniping. When I meet someone who claims to be a Christian, but teaches heresy, I point out there heresy. If they refuse to listen, they have God to talk to.

Ah, so you've personally spoken to or reached out to those people from that closed thread where you quoted them? Or are you just talking behind their backs?

 

[Albion]

No sniping. When I meet someone who claims to be a Christian, but teaches heresy, I point out there heresy. If they refuse to listen, they have God to talk to.

That isn't the case, however, is it? Your posts have attacked a number of Christians here on CH merely for being members of their churches.

 

[MennoSota]

That isn't the case, however, is it? Your posts have attacked a number of Christians here on CH merely for being members of their churches.

No, I have pointed out when their theology shows that they are not Christians, but are CINO'S.