Is Immersion required by Scripture when a baptism is performed?

atpollard

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Just because you personally do not like it that there were earlier transcripts that had it? Hmm. Okay.

When the Pharisees used the word describing how Jesus did not "wash" (is how it got translated) before eating there is another instance where no translation says "immerse" that I use. That was another verse I believe has been mentioned in this thread to show that baptizo also means to wash.

Did you REALLY want me to respond by posting all of the teams of translators that did not include the word 'table' or 'couch'?
That is what I was attempting to avoid by just assuming you knew that the ESV and NASB did not include those words.

As I pointed out once already, 'baptizo' can mean to wash by immersion [like taking a bath], so is it really impractical to imagine that someone provided with a 30 gallon pitcher of water for 'ceremonial washing' cannot wash his hands by immersing them in the water?
 

MennoSota

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The word "baptizo" does not have to be associated with water. Nor does the immersion need to be physical. Reading your commentary we can see this to be true.
Yet, when we read of Jesus baptism with water, we see that the context presents a full immersion in water. Paying attention to context will help us understand whether baptism is in water, the Holy Spirit or some other element.
 

Albion

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Yet, when we read of Jesus baptism with water, we see that the context presents a full immersion in water..
It does not.

That error has already been extensively discussed here.
 

Lamb

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The word "baptizo" does not have to be associated with water. Nor does the immersion need to be physical. Reading your commentary we can see this to be true.
Yet, when we read of Jesus baptism with water, we see that the context presents a full immersion in water. Paying attention to context will help us understand whether baptism is in water, the Holy Spirit or some other element.

Because it's not about quantity...baptizo. Forcing the word to only mean immersion is showing that you think it's only about the quantity of water and that clearly misses the point of what baptism is.
 

MennoSota

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Lamb

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Really? You argue that Jesus was sprinkled?

It is not indicated in scripture what method Jesus received His baptism except that it was done with water. To state otherwise is not going to be truthful.
 

MennoSota

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Because it's not about quantity...baptizo. Forcing the word to only mean immersion is showing that you think it's only about the quantity of water and that clearly misses the point of what baptism is.
Think outside the concept of water. Are we immersed in Christ or only sprinkled in Christ?
The word means what it means. The context defines if it is symbolic, metaphorical or literal. Context, context, context.
 

Lamb

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Think outside the concept of water. Are we immersed in Christ or only sprinkled in Christ?
The word means what it means. The context defines if it is symbolic, metaphorical or literal. Context, context, context.

God's promises are with the water. Context and what it says.
 

Albion

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That's right, and that's the point I was making...when you combine the explanation of meaning by atpollard with what is most reasonable and likely, immersion would seem to be what was done by John with Jesus in the Jordan River.
Sorry, but it is not. BUT EVEN IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED, it doesn't do a thing towards proving that baptisms MUST be by submersion.

It's a great symbolic ceremony, (it should be) but it's not a requirement for salvation
DID I say that it IS a requirement for salvation? If not, let's avoid using strawman arguments like this one.

I'm frankly amazed at how often ppl insist on twisting not only scripture, but...
Don't mock me, please, if you want to communicate something to me.
 

MennoSota

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It is not indicated in scripture what method Jesus received His baptism except that it was done with water. To state otherwise is not going to be truthful.
Was Jesus immersed in God or sprinkled in God?
Your argument is from silence, which is why the context and word usage are important.
 

MennoSota

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God's promises are with the water. Context and what it says.
Is there any place in scripture where the baptism is with the Holy Spirit?
Why do you force water in with the word baptizo...even though the authors don't do so?
 

Albion

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Lamb

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Was Jesus immersed in God or sprinkled in God?
Your argument is from silence, which is why the context and word usage are important.

Scripture says that water was used because he was in the river. It doesn't not state if he stood, if he was laid back into it, etc...it doesn't not say if he was covered from head to toe completely. Mankind needs to be aware of what baptism is and not demand what it is not. If God wanted something done to a certain detail He would have commanded it in a thorough way where there would be no room for question. Be baptized. That's passive first off all. And it utilizes water. And Jesus also said it was to be done in the name of the Father and and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
 

Josiah

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It is not indicated in scripture what method Jesus received His baptism except that it was done with water. To state otherwise is not going to be truthful.


.... and Scripture doesn't say He was immersed (only that, from the perspective of the writer, he went lower in elevation to and from the water). BUT, that technically said, I think it is generally accepted that He was immersed because we are specifically told which Jewish baptism rite He was given, "The Baptism of Repentance for the Forgiveness of Sins." And yup, we know from history that was done by immersion in rivers.

But my point: SO WHAT? We ALL disagree with the rubric that we must do ONLY what is illustrated in Scripture and no other. We couldn't be posting on the internet if we believed that.... This, "But Jesus was immersed!" is not provable and it's entirely irrelevant since NO ONE ON THE PLANET believes that we can only do as illustrated by examples in the Bible, much less ONLY by those that involve Jesus personally.
 

Albion

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Your argument is from silence, which is why the context and word usage are important.
No, it is not. Jesus' baptism is well documented in Scripture as well as several others. All that is in question in this thread is the claim that these must have been by submersion although the text doesn't say that they were, the context doesn't indicate it, and history doesn't substantiate the claim.
 

MennoSota

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Sorry, but it is not. BUT EVEN IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED, it doesn't do a thing towards proving that baptisms MUST be by submersion.


DID I say that it IS a requirement for salvation? If not, let's avoid using strawman arguments like this one.

Don't mock me, please, if you want to communicate something to me.
Who says they must be by submersion?
atpollard has simply pointed out what the greek word means. If we took it literally then every person who was baptized would drown because they would never come back up from the water.
However, when the context turns to our immersion in Christ, we acknowledge that we are found in Christ (immersed in Christ) and not just sprinkled. Thus the symbol of going fully under the water is more accurate in its practice than sprinkling could ever be.
 

Josiah

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atpollard has simply pointed out what the greek word means

But he appears to be wrong. At least, he's not proven the point correct.


Josiah said:



1. Again, I don't think a case can be made that the koine Greek word means only "to physically and wholly immerse in and under water." Just for starters, see Acts 11:15-16, 1 Corinthians 10:2, Hebrews 9:10, Mark 7:4, Mark 10:38, Mark 10:39, Luke 12: 50, Luke 11:38, Acts 2:17, Acts 2:18


2. I don't think a case can be made that the title of an act governs it. If so, communion would have to be a party, part of a supper (at supper time), and always done in common. Worship would have to be always bowing down, etc. It's silly to argue that the the title of a practice governs how the practice must be done, it's an illogical and silly argument.


3. We know from history that pouring and sprinkling were practiced very early (well established by 70 - 110 AD) - by people who actually knew and spoke koine Greek - so obviously those who spoke koine Greek did not limit baptism to immersion, those who lived at the time and who actually spoke the language did not agree with that 16th Century Anabaptist who insisted the word must mean "immerse" and that baptism thus can only be by immersion. Why did this one guy in 16th Century Germany suddenly (of out the blue) know that the word means when no one who actually spoke it and used it in the First and Second Centuries did?


4. I reject the rubric that we can only do what seems was done by examples recorded in the bible. I wouldn't be posting on the internet if I held to that.




The Didache was written A.D. 70 - 110, and, though not inspired, is a strong witness to the sacramental practice of Christians in the apostolic age. Now friend, the writer and all the readers of that, living somewhere between 70 - 110 AD, all knew Koine Greek... and it's written in Koine Greek... so they likely knew the meaning of words in koine Greek (the language of the NTand the language of the word we are discussing. This extremely popular book (that almost got into the NT Canon) was written perhaps when many of the Apostles were still alive and when there were still eyewitnesses to Christ.... and when people knew and used koine Greek.


In its seventh chapter, the Didache reads, "Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." These instructions were composed either while some of the apostles and disciples were still alive or during the next generation of Christians, and they represent an already established custom.


Now... obviously in the period of 70 - 110 AD, Christians did not at all understand the situation as was insisted beginning in the 16th Century with the Anabaptists (none of whom spoke koine Greek, few of whom knew it at all). Obviously, they did not understand that the word in question has one and only one meaning: "To physically and entirely immerse in and under water" because he specifically states that it may be by pouring (he PREFERS immersing in living water, but he ALLOWS pouring). And the Didache does NOT insist that we must do it according to the primary meaning of the word or as Jesus was Baptized. Both your points are contradicted by the Didache (written when people knew, understood and used koine Greek)


The testimony of the Didache is seconded by other early Christian writings. Pope Cornelius I wrote that as Novatian was about to die, "he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring" (Letter to Fabius of Antioch [A.D. 251]; cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:4311).


Cyprian advised that no one should be "disturbed because the people are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord’s grace" (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69:12 [A.D. 255]). Tertullian described baptism by saying that it is done "with so great simplicity, without pomp, without any considerable novelty of preparation, and finally, without cost, a man is baptized in water, and amid the utterance of some few words, is sprinkled." (On Baptism, 2 [A.D. 203]). Obviously, Tertullian did not consider baptism by immersion the only valid form.


It appears, those that knew and used koine Greek entirely disagree with you. And so did those who lived in the early age of the church. Indeed, it seems all until the 16th Century Anabaptist movement began.


In the Didache, a very respected (almost got into the NT) and popular book (STILL used in some seminaries) was likely written when many of the Apostles were still alive and by one who wrote in koine Greek in the First Century - one who knew the meaning of the word at that time. And this books specifically states it's okay to POUR water..... and it appears this is already a well established practice. In fact, the "issue" in the book is more that it be "living water" .... and there is NOTHING in it about "thou mayest ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY baptize by wholly and entirely immersing said person under and in water or it's not baptism and not valid." Nope. He says one may "POUR." Why is the didache and all who read it in the First Century - who knew and spoke and wrote koine Greek, why are all of them entirely ignorant as to the meaning of the word and what is permissible.... in fact EVERYONE until a certain Anabaptist came along in the 16th Century who didn't speak koine Greek or live in the early years of Christiantiy.... why did NONE of them know what the word they used means? No one did until a single man in the 16th Century who spoke and wrote in German?


Friend, there are no First Century Koine Greek dictionaries, NONE written by those who spoke, wrote and used the language in the Early Church. But we can look at how it is used in the NTand we can see how early Christians (perhaps as early as 70 AD and certainly by 110 AD) used and understood it. And they specifically, verbatim, in writing, declare that this includes pouring and sprinkling. In fact, it seems NOT ONE EARLY CHRISTIAN who spoke or knew koine Greek agreed with the Anabaptist on this..... no one did until that German speaking Anabaptist in the 16th Century. Why? Perhaps because the word does not mean (exclusively anyway) what you insist it means, what your "crusade" is. Those who knew and spoke and wrote koine Greek specifically declare it's okay to pour and sprinkle. So it can't mean what you say it means. This is shown by Scripture and by very early koine-Greek speaking Christians.




Is immersion PERMISSIBLE? Yes, and I know of NONE in the entire history of Christianity who has argued otherwise.

Is the SYMBOLISM of immersion rich? Yes (Luther thought so, too, btw).

Was this the preferable praxis in the First and Second Centuries? It seems so (although the far bigger issue was "living water")

But here's the thing...

Is it the ONLY mode permitted in Holy Scripture? Does Scripture indicate that anything other that full, entire, whole immersion under and in water makes for an invalid rite/ordinance/sacrament (as the Anabaptists dogmatically insisted and many Baptists today argue)? No.

Does the word itself exclusely and solely and only mean "To fully, physically, wholly immersed into and under water?" No - as the Bible itself shows, as the Didache and early Christians (who knew and used koine Greek) obviously prove.

Did the earliest Christians (well within the time when at least some Apostles were still alive) insist the baptism could only be by immersion? No. They stated the exact opposite.



.





.
 
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MennoSota

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It's an analogy.
No, it isn't. We are really immersed in the Spirit of God. It is a sweet union. As [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] would say...a mystery...that unifies us as one with Christ.
 

Lamb

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No, it isn't. We are really immersed in the Spirit of God. It is a sweet union. As [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION] would say...a mystery...that unifies us as one with Christ.

How about the outPOURing of the Holy Spirit?
 

Albion

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Who says they must be by submersion?
atpollard has simply pointed out what the greek word means..

Sorry, no. He did so repeatedly. The following is only one example:

It is a choice between what the Bible actually and literally says, and "church traditions". I simply choose to place the Word of God over the traditions of men. God said 'baptizo' which means to plunge under or overwhelm. I am not responsible for what the word literally means.
 
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