What does God's Sovereignty mean?

[Albion]

No...it doesn't.
God is not "OK" with sin. He will never receive sin into heaven and he is entirely right and just in casting all humanity into hell because of humanities rebellion to God.
You seem to indicate that God should feel sorry for rebels. Do you think we should feel sorry for ISIS rebels who commit crimes against humanity? If not, then why should God feel sorry for rebels who commit crimes against God?
The Bible says "There is none righteous, not even one."
Are you struggling to grasp the depravity of the human condition? We may not be as bad as we could be, but we are corrupt nonetheless.
To even attempt to make God into some evil deity for not pardoning sinners is an abhorrent thing. It is precisely the problem that Paul is addressing in Romans 9 when he rebukes the thinking of some Christians in Rome who attempted to blame God for sinners being damned to hell.

You already said this and it doesn't get any more correct because you posted it a second time. If you want to respond to my point, however, that would be fine with me.

 

[meluckycharms]

No...it doesn't.
God is not "OK" with sin. He will never receive sin into heaven and he is entirely right and just in casting all humanity into hell because of humanities rebellion to God.

I agree with this statement. However, how then would we explain the thought process behind God choosing to place the Tree of Knowledge smack dab in the middle of the Garden of Eden? Why would God create Lucifer knowing he would rebel and take a third of the angels? What led Lucifer to sin? You noted that sin cannot be in God's presence and I agree. However, what then was present in heaven that caused Lucifer to sin? One can only conclude that God orchestrated the entire scenario because He desired sin to exist. The only other option is that God made a mistake, not an option for me.

I have had many conversations with atheists who have stated that these questions are responsible for them leaving the church. Any logical and rational individual cannot simply be satisfied with "I don't know. God does what he wants. Here's Romans 9. How would you respond to these questions?

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[meluckycharms]

Are you struggling to grasp the depravity of the human condition? We may not be as bad as we could be, but we are corrupt nonetheless.

What is your definition of "total depravity"?

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[MennoSota]

I disagree. I think Scripture does, too. I even think Calvin disagrees; I think you've taken the "double predestination" invention to an extreme greater than found in Reformed Theology (or in Christian or even Islamic theology - you've taken all this "sovereignty stuff even further than Islam).

Your conjecture is - on a certain level - just as biblical and "logical" as that of Jacob Arminius (just the opposite) but it runs head-on into just as many clear Scriptures as the conjecture of Arminius so that like him, you must circumvent and twist 180 degrees a LOT of clear Scriptures. Both flow from the same fundamental error: That God is amiss, what God has said often needs radical correction, that God's sovereignty is subject to ours, God's brain is subject to ours, God MUST agree with self or else God isn't smart like self claims self is.

Until Arminius and Calvin came along in the 16th Century, Christians were humble enough (and willing to accept the soverignty of God enough) to accept that if we have life, if we have faith, if we are justified - this is solely because of God's free gift, as it says it the Nicene Creed ".... and we believe in the Holy Spirit - the Author and GIVER of Life." The Ecumenical Council of Orange affirmed that JESUS is 100% the Savior. But until Calvin, Christians were not willing to regard God as wrong so very often, that GOD is the to blame for hell, for death, for why some are 't saved (which is why the Creed does NOT say, "..... we believe that God is the Author and Giver of Death and Condemnation.") Until Calvin and Arminius, Christians accepted the soverignty of God and thus their subjection to Him. These two men were part of a movement hinging on the claim that man is smarter than God, that self is divinely appointed to be the Corrector of God, the Answer Man for God, to correct those MANY things were God seems inconsistent and where God chose to leave things unanswered. I find it amazing that Calvinists shout SO much about the sovereignty of God when it seems THEY are the ones actively denying it by insisting God is subject to MAN'S brain, logic, reason, philosophy. It seems more in keeping with being subject to God to confess, "God is right.... God knows..... and if I don't, that's okay because God is God and not me."

Not at all. It is you who is bringing up a double predestination. I have addressed this in the past.
There is only one destination for those who are bound in sin. Those wages are death...eternal damnation. God justly condemns sinners. This has nothing to do with predestination. It has everything to do with the fallen human condition in which you and I are born.
Do you deny your inherent corruption?
What is predestined (and very clearly taught in scripture) is God extension of unmerited favor (grace) to those whom he has elected to extend that unmerited favor.
I do not see any double predestination talked about in scripture, yet you attempt to force me into your philosophy that has no biblical merit. Josiah, why are you so intent on avoiding God's word and arguing from man-made schemes? Let us seek scripture alone.
I believe God is very clear on this issue. God's sovereignty is the umbrella over all other labels, such as justification, election, sanctification, etc. Grasping and trusting God's Sovereignty is of the highest importance if we are ever going to comprehend God's justification, election, sanctification, etc.

 

[MennoSota]

You already said this and it doesn't get any more correct because you posted it a second time. If you want to respond to my point, however, that would be fine with me.

It is very much correct regardless of your choice to believe a false narrative, Albion.
I have addressed your false statement and used scripture to disprove it. You may hold to your lie if you wish.

 

[meluckycharms]

Not at all. It is you who is bringing up a double predestination.

God chooses an unmerited pardon for some and chooses just punishment for others because...Only God knows.

^^This is double predestination^^

A statement supporting single predestination would be, "We all deserve to go to Hell. God did not choose us to go to Hell. However, He only pardons a few elect."

 

[Josiah]

^^This is double predestination^^

Indeed, MennoSota gave perhaps the most extreme expression of Double Predestination there is. "God chooses pardon for some and chooses punishment for others." As I noted, that seems even more radical than I've heard from Calvinists; even beyond what Islam holds. I reject it.

 

[Imalive]

I agree with this statement. However, how then would we explain the thought process behind God choosing to place the Tree of Knowledge smack dab in the middle of the Garden of Eden? Why would God create Lucifer knowing he would rebel and take a third of the angels? What led Lucifer to sin? You noted that sin cannot be in God's presence and I agree. However, what then was present in heaven that caused Lucifer to sin? One can only conclude that God orchestrated the entire scenario because He desired sin to exist. The only other option is that God made a mistake, not an option for me.

I have had many conversations with atheists who have stated that these questions are responsible for them leaving the church. Any logical and rational individual cannot simply be satisfied with "I don't know. God does what he wants. Here's Romans 9. How would you respond to these questions?

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He desired sin to exist? Then He's bad and was lying. He could have just told Adam to go eat or made him sinful if He likes sin. God hates sin.
It is because you can only have one God. Make some cute bunnies, no problem. They'll listen for a carrot. Make people just like Jesus, God and they can choose to be proud and do what they wanna do. The tree just speeded things up and forced em to choose.
Lucifer got proud.
There was no tree or sin w Lucifer. He invented it himself.
God made man to reign over sin and the devil and although Adam failed first, through Jesus we can get His nature and overcome satan and sin and become like Him.
If people don't want that, that's just dumb. I read a thread about universalism from some atheists. I said: if everyone could simply not be stubborn and dumb and make peace w God we have universal reconciliation. Come on now. Who in their right mind wants to follow satan?

 

[MennoSota]

It would be wonderful if people shared scripture when discussing God's Sovereignty and the reason Adam and Eve sinned, which brought about our own downfall.
Is it possible for people here to accomplish that feat?

 

[Imalive]

It would be wonderful if people shared scripture when discussing God's Sovereignty and the reason Adam and Eve sinned, which brought about our own downfall.
Is it possible for people here to accomplish that feat?

Sure. I will copy paste some instant texts w it. :=D:

https://answersingenesis.org/sin/the-first-sin/

 

[MennoSota]

Sure. I will copy paste some instant texts w it. :=D:

https://answersingenesis.org/sin/the-first-sin/

Thanks.
I have been here long enough to know that most people love their denomination above all other things and struggle to read God's word without filtering it through their catechism and concordia. It's disappointing, but all too common. I suspect I will attempt to just leave them alone. Old dogs...

 

[Josiah]

It would be wonderful if people shared scripture when discussing God's Sovereignty.

I don't think anyone is debating the sovereignty of God.... Some conclude that you don't accept it much; some note that while God IS sovereign, God IS also loving, merciful, gracious, kind, forgiving; etc. But I think the issue many have with you, my friend, is the application you make of this - the extreme "DOUBLE predestination" application.

the reason Adam and Eve sinned

Scripture doesn't say, so it's impossible for any to quote Scripture on that and impossible to answer that. They DID - we all accept.... and fallenness is now a part of our human reality..... but I don't agree that GOD is to blame because of your concept of His sovereignty. Many of us don't accept that GOD is to blame for Satan or the Fall or for some frying eternally in hell.

It would be wonderful if people shared scripture

But friend, you haven't produced ANY Scriptures to support that "God chooses pardon for some and chooses punishment for others." You key (and omnipresent) point. In fact, it is very obvious that exactly like Arminians, you must TWIST a LOT of Scriptures 180 degrees to even make your conjecture (NOT Scriptural declaration) even possible. Calvin and Arminius' conjectures are LOGICAL constructions, not biblical teachings. Calvin is right about the saved - but his wrong about the unsaved; Arminius may be right about the unsaved but he's very wrong about the saved. Both equally subject God's Word to their own conjectures, "logic" and brains (so very odd that Calvinists would talk about the need for GOD to be sovereign when clearly their point is that God is subject to their own).

 

[Imalive]

Thanks.
I have been here long enough to know that most people love their denomination above all other things and struggle to read God's word without filtering it through their catechism and concordia. It's disappointing, but all too common. I suspect I will attempt to just leave them alone. Old dogs...

It doesnt have much to do w denomination, some yes. I just went to a freethinker forum one day to convert the whole bunch and answer their 200 questions. How was I to know they were angry ex christians and those were trick questions? So I looked it all up if I had no answer. I had actually never given it much thought. I could get a Bible text w it all but you wont believe it anyway and its so much work.

 

[Imalive]

I don't think anyone is debating the sovereignty of God.... Some conclude that you don't accept it much; some note that while God IS sovereign, God IS also loving, merciful, gracious, kind, forgiving; etc. But I think the issue many have with you, my friend, is the application you make of this - the extreme "DOUBLE predestination" application.





Scripture doesn't say, so it's impossible for any to quote Scripture on that and impossible to answer that. They DID - we all accept.... and fallenness is now a part of our human reality..... but I don't agree that GOD is to blame because of your concept of His sovereignty. Many of us don't accept that GOD is to blame for Satan or the Fall or for some frying eternally in hell.





But friend, you haven't produced ANY Scriptures to support that "God chooses pardon for some and chooses punishment for others." You key (and omnipresent) point. In fact, it is very obvious that exactly like Arminians, you must TWIST a LOT of Scriptures 180 degrees to even make your conjecture (NOT Scriptural declaration) even possible. Calvin and Arminius' conjectures are LOGICAL constructions, not biblical teachings. Calvin is right about the saved - but his wrong about the unsaved; Arminius may be right about the unsaved but he's very wrong about the saved. Both equally subject God's Word to their own conjectures, "logic" and brains (so very odd that Calvinists would talk about the need for GOD to be sovereign when clearly their point is that God is subject to their own).

Scripture doesnt say? Devil said God is bad and lying to you. You can be like Him if you disobey. Eve ate because she wanted that. Adam ate because he wanted that too or because of her. He wasn't mislead by satan. is somewhere in Timothy and he says it in Genesis too. He blames God. That woman You gave me.

 

[Josiah]

Scripture doesnt say? Devil said God is bad and lying to you. You can be like Him if you disobey. Eve ate because she wanted that. Adam ate because he wanted that too or because of her. He wasn't mislead by satan. is somewhere in Timothy and he says it in Genesis too. He blames God. That woman You gave me.

The Scripture states that the snake was bad - but not why. The Scripture says the snake TEMPTED Eve - but not why. And Scripture says Eve took the fruit, "because she wanted to be like God" but not why. Why would PERFECT choose imperfection? Why would LIFE choose death? We aren't told why. The account seems to be to tell us WHAT happened - not why. And I think it makes it clear GOD is not the one to blame or fault here; WHATEVER the cause may be, it's NOT God.

In any case, this is a thread about the SOVEREIGNTY of God, not WHY Satan fell or WHY Eve fell or WHY sin/death came into existence. But this much I've said: It's not God's fault. It's not God's desire. God didn't cause it and make it to happen.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't think anyone is debating the sovereignty of God.... Some conclude that you don't accept it much; some note that while God IS sovereign, God IS also loving, merciful, gracious, kind, forgiving; etc. But I think the issue many have with you, my friend, is the application you make of this - the extreme "DOUBLE predestination" application.





Scripture doesn't say, so it's impossible for any to quote Scripture on that and impossible to answer that. They DID - we all accept.... and fallenness is now a part of our human reality..... but I don't agree that GOD is to blame because of your concept of His sovereignty. Many of us don't accept that GOD is to blame for Satan or the Fall or for some frying eternally in hell.





But friend, you haven't produced ANY Scriptures to support that "God chooses pardon for some and chooses punishment for others." You key (and omnipresent) point. In fact, it is very obvious that exactly like Arminians, you must TWIST a LOT of Scriptures 180 degrees to even make your conjecture (NOT Scriptural declaration) even possible. Calvin and Arminius' conjectures are LOGICAL constructions, not biblical teachings. Calvin is right about the saved - but his wrong about the unsaved; Arminius may be right about the unsaved but he's very wrong about the saved. Both equally subject God's Word to their own conjectures, "logic" and brains (so very odd that Calvinists would talk about the need for GOD to be sovereign when clearly their point is that God is subject to their own).

Josiah, it is you who is labeling God's Sovereignty as double predestination. You have created an idea out of nothing. It seems you need to create a false claim to maintain your own position.
I have made my case using scripture. You have not. That is the essence of the matter.

 

[meluckycharms]

He desired sin to exist? Then He's bad and was lying. He could have just told Adam to go eat or made him sinful if He likes sin. God hates sin.
It is because you can only have one God. Make some cute bunnies, no problem. They'll listen for a carrot. Make people just like Jesus, God and they can choose to be proud and do what they wanna do. The tree just speeded things up and forced em to choose.
Lucifer got proud.
There was no tree or sin w Lucifer. He invented it himself.
God made man to reign over sin and the devil and although Adam failed first, through Jesus we can get His nature and overcome satan and sin and become like Him.
If people don't want that, that's just dumb. I read a thread about universalism from some atheists. I said: if everyone could simply not be stubborn and dumb and make peace w God we have universal reconciliation. Come on now. Who in their right mind wants to follow satan?

I agree with your response. However, when we remove "free will" from the equation, these are the questions we must struggle with. That extreme Calvinists must struggle with. It is unfortunate that their only response is "Read Romans 9 and quit asking stupid questions. If you can't settle with that, perhaps you are just not one of the few elect destined to be saved."

I cannot tell you how many people I have talked to who turned their back from God and the church because of these responses. I had a roommate to told me to my face, "Even if God does exist, I would rather spend eternity in Hell than worship a God who would knowingly create people doomed to Hell without a choice." He came from a reformed Calvinist church!

It is sad to know that at least one soul was lost as a result of the same extreme Calvinist views that MennoSota has adopted.

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[Imalive]

I agree with your response. However, when we remove "free will" from the equation, these are the questions we must struggle with. That extreme Calvinists must struggle with. It is unfortunate that their only response is "Read Romans 9 and quit asking stupid questions. If you can't settle with that, perhaps you are just not one of the few elect destined to be saved."

I cannot tell you how many people I have talked to who turned their back from God and the church because of these responses. I had a roommate to told me to my face, "Even if God does exist, I would rather spend eternity in Hell than worship a God who would knowingly create people doomed to Hell without a choice." He came from a reformed Calvinist church!

It is sad to know that at least one soul was lost as a result of the same extreme Calvinist views that MennoSota has adopted.

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Yes I've seen that a lot. Holland is calvinistic from origin. In those reformed churches you may not question God, not ask any question like that. When my son was 6 he came with all these questions. Why did God make satan? Why was there a tree? I think it's very important to have a good answer. It's the main reason ppl in the West want nothing to do with God. If there's horrible suffering, don't question. They get taught God is almighty. Oh then why doesn't He do anything?

 

[meluckycharms]

Thanks.
I have been here long enough to know that most people love their denomination above all other things and struggle to read God's word without filtering it through their catechism and concordia. It's disappointing, but all too common. I suspect I will attempt to just leave them alone. Old dogs...

Lol.

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[Josiah]

God chooses an unmerited pardon for some and chooses just punishment for others.

The most radical expression of double predestination possible..... and a point you keep making. And obviously what you think "sovereignty of God" means since it's your point in this thread (and others).

No. You have provided no Scripture that states that God equally chooses punishment for some, nothing to substantiate the double predestination you preach.