What does God's Sovereignty mean?

[Imalive]

Romans 11 is so clear about what election is and does not teach unconditional election to salvation at all. It teaches unconditional election to be used in His plan.

Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

 

[Imalive]

Election is not even mentioned in Romans 9. You have to read Romans 8 for that. What we read in Romans 9 is God Sovereignly chooses.

I dont know the difference. In Dutch we have one word. Choosing out of.

 

[MennoSota]

Romans 8:27-39
[27]And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will.
[28]And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
[31]What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us?
[32]Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else?
[33]Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
[34]Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
[35]Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?
[36](As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”)
[37]No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
[38]And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.
[39]No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Imalive]

Election is not even mentioned in Romans 9. You have to read Romans 8 for that. What we read in Romans 9 is God Sovereignly chooses.

Romans 8

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

9 verse 11 says election.

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls

 

[MennoSota]

Romans 8

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

9 verse 11 says election.

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls

Thanks for pointing this out. The greek word "eklektos" can be translated as chosen or as elect. This is the case in Matthew 24.

 

[Imalive]

Hmm I don't know. Romans 8 says He predestined those He foreknew. So He always knew His and the others not. I never knew you.
If you read all the other texts, there goes my neat Arminian doctrin out of the window. Jesus did not pray for the world, only for those who God had given Him and He died for His bride. 'God loves the whole world'. Then why didn't He even pray for them? Did He love the pharisees?

Oh. Debunked.

that they [future believers] all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.” (John 17:21)


I go do something useful and not read those calvinist things anymore.

 

[Imalive]

Meanwhile my ex doesnt break his brain over this stuff and is getting the harvest in.

 

[MennoSota]

Hmm I don't know. Romans 8 says He predestined those He foreknew. So He always knew His and the others not. I never knew you.
If you read all the other texts, there goes my neat Arminian doctrin out of the window. Jesus did not pray for the world, only for those who God had given Him and He died for His bride. 'God loves the whole world'. Then why didn't He even pray for them? Did He love the pharisees?

Oh. Debunked.

that they [future believers] all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.” (John 17:21)


I go do something useful and not read those calvinist things anymore.

Just read the Bible and take God at His word. Let the entire word of God guide you when you read a verse that seems contrary to others. And above all...keep praising God even though we cannot understand all of God’s ways.

 

[meluckycharms]

... are you sure?

Romans 9:6-8 NKJV But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Romans 9:22-26 NKJV What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As He says also in Hosea:
​
​​“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
​​And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
​​“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
​‘​You are not My people,’
​​There they shall be called sons of the living God."


It sure sounds like it applies to gentiles as well as Jews and Paul even uses "they" in verse 6 (excluding himself from Jews, his brothers) and uses "us" in verse 24, including himself with the gentiles. The distinction seems to be between the people of Faith and those not of faith. Historic Israel is just the example given for a universal lesson.

It should pretty clear to me that Paul is trying to explain to the Gentiles why God didn't break His promises with Israel and that just because someone isn't an Israelite that doesn't mean they cannot be children of God. He also is trying to explain that just because someone is an Israelite, it doesn't mean they are children of God. Basically, God shows no favoritism. Either way, Romans 9 is Paul talking about the nation of Israel to the Gentiles.

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[atpollard]

Well...Romans 9 is clearly describing the nation of Israel and not intended to be normative for all people.

... are you sure?

It (seems) pretty clear to me that Paul is trying to explain to the Gentiles why God didn't break His promises with Israel and that just because someone isn't an Israelite that doesn't mean they cannot be children of God. He also is trying to explain that just because someone is an Israelite, it doesn't mean they are children of God. Basically, God shows no favoritism. Either way, Romans 9 is Paul talking about the nation of Israel to the Gentiles.

So which is it?

• God is "only talking about the nation of Israel" in chapter 9 (and none of the lessons of Romans 9 apply to us),
• or "God shows no favoritism" and the lessons about Isreal are "for all people".

I am confused on your position.
(but at least we are only discussing Chapter 9, the other conversation looks much harder to follow). :juggle: :wink:

 

[meluckycharms]

So which is it?

• God is "only talking about the nation of Israel" in chapter 9 (and none of the lessons of Romans 9 apply to us),
• or "God shows no favoritism" and the lessons about Isreal are "for all people".

I am confused on your position.
(but at least we are only discussing Chapter 9, the other conversation looks much harder to follow). :juggle: :wink:

He is talking about the nation of Israel to the Romans. Btw, there were a lot of Jews in Rome. They weren't all Gentiles (Paul for example). These Jews were getting upset because they assumed that they were saved simply because they were Jewish. They assumed that they were "children of God" simply because they were Jewish. These Jews were complaining because they could not stomach the idea that a gentile could be a "child of God".

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