Okay, let's talk about predestination

[Lamb]

Universal atonement places the effort of salvation or no salvation upon the human. It is human-centered, making God subject under the will of man.
Go read my thread on the Arminian creed, because that is the essence of universal atonement/unlimited atonement.

No. Universal atonement places salvation entirely on the Christ who achieved that success. God gives faith to man to grasp onto that good news. The men who reject that faith are the ones who will never benefit from the atonement won on the cross. That's not man's efforts in salvation at all but entirely God's doing.

 

[MennoSota]

No. Universal atonement places salvation entirely on the Christ who achieved that success. God gives faith to man to grasp onto that good news. The men who reject that faith are the ones who will never benefit from the atonement won on the cross. That's not man's efforts in salvation at all but entirely God's doing.

Let's focus on this phrase of yours...
" The men who reject..."
In that phrase, man's will becomes greater than God's will.
If God desires all men to be saved, but man desires to reject God, then man's will defeats God's will in the situation. God becomes less while man becomes greater. Your conclusion is incorrect.

 

[user1234]

It's importance is not in regard to salvation, but it instead it is in regard to Lordship. It is important in relation to whose will is greater, yours or God's.
Josiah has touched on synergism where the thought is that salvation is a dual action of man and God. Essentially humans are equal rulers with God.
This is a very subtle power grab by humans as a means of having control over their lives. God is not so much Lord as He is the top level consultant for the team.

In posts #57 and #58 I thought you were saying it WAS about salvation?

Even so, all these different catagories and labels and boxes ppl ... 'christians' ... often insist on putting each other (or themselves) in just seem to keep accumulating, and Im not sure what theyre accomplishing. Theres monergism, synergism, calvinism, lutheranism, roman catholicism, arminianism, pelagianism, semi-pelgianism, anti-nomianism, semi-anti-pelagianomianism with a half-twist, double-turn pike layout full somersault triple sow cow unionmilk :disgonbegood: ... ism. etc. ...

I mean, we assume everyone's a christian until we're told otherwise anyway, right? So then what do these catagories do, except maybe give us our own sections to sit in the kingdom?

Btw, maybe purgatory is the place all the non-osas ppl go until they get it?
No...not all non-osas, there's alot of simple misunderstanding ...
just the very very ANTI-osas ones go there...perhaps?

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
" The men who reject..."
In that phrase, man's will becomes greater than God's will.
...

How do you get to that conclusion?

 

[Imalive]

Let's focus on this phrase of yours...
" The men who reject..."
In that phrase, man's will becomes greater than God's will.
If God desires all men to be saved, but man desires to reject God, then man's will defeats God's will in the situation. God becomes less while man becomes greater. Your conclusion is incorrect.

God doesn't become less. The people who don't want Him are dumb and become less.

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying, 2 “Go down to the pot-maker’s house, and there I will let you hear My words.” 3 So I went down to the pot-maker’s house, and saw him making one on the wheel. 4 But the pot he was making of clay did not come out like he wanted it. So the pot-maker used the clay to make another pot that pleased him.

5 Then the Word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 “O people of Israel, can I not do with you as this potmaker has done?” says the Lord. “Like the clay in the pot-maker’s hand, so are you in My hand, O people of Israel. 7 If at any time I speak about a nation, to pull up, and to break down and to destroy, 8 and if that nation I spoke against turns from its sin, then I will change My mind about the trouble I planned to bring upon it. 9 If at another time I speak about a nation, that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does what is sinful in My eyes by not obeying My voice, then I will change My mind about the good I had promised to bring to it. 11 So now speak to the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. Tell them, ‘The Lord says, “See, I am making trouble for you and making a plan against you. So each of you turn from your sinful way. Change your ways and your works.”’ 12 But they will say, ‘There is no hope! For we are going to follow our own plans. Each of us will act in the strong-will of his sinful heart.’

 

[MennoSota]

In posts #57 and #58 I thought you were saying it WAS about salvation?

Even so, all these different catagories and labels and boxes ppl ... 'christians' ... often insist on putting each other (or themselves) in just seem to keep accumulating, and Im not sure what theyre accomplishing. Theres monergism, synergism, calvinism, lutheranism, roman catholicism, arminianism, pelagianism, semi-pelgianism, anti-nomianism, semi-anti-pelagianomianism with a half-twist, double-turn pike layout full somersault triple sow cow unionmilk :disgonbegood: ... ism. etc. ...

I mean, we assume everyone's a christian until we're told otherwise anyway, right? So then what do these catagories do, except maybe give us our own sections to sit in the kingdom?

Btw, maybe purgatory is the place all the non-osas ppl go until they get it?
No...not all non-osas, there's alot of simple misunderstanding ...
just the very very ANTI-osas ones go there...perhaps?

Iron sharpens iron. Our final authority is scripture. Since God is infinite and we are finite, we will always be working to understand who God is and what He has done. This exercise is good for our selves.

 

[MennoSota]

How do you get to that conclusion?

I explained it in the rest of my comment. Perhaps, next time, you quote the entire comment so you don't have to ask the question.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I explained it in the rest of my comment. Perhaps, next time, you quote the entire comment so you don't have to ask the question.

I see, one little free will "no" to grace means God is not omniscient and omnipotent. Freedom is mighty powerful then. Like a rock too heavy for God to lift and a a problem too difficult for God to solve (for example a triangle with more (or less) than three angels).

 

[MennoSota]

God doesn't become less. The people who don't want Him are dumb and become less.

You said: God wants all humans to be saved. Then the next statement is: Humans have the power to reject God's will.
Smart or dumb is irrelevant in this discussion.
The question is: Whose will is greater and more powerful, God's or man's?

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying, 2 “Go down to the pot-maker’s house, and there I will let you hear My words.” 3 So I went down to the pot-maker’s house, and saw him making one on the wheel. 4 But the pot he was making of clay did not come out like he wanted it. So the pot-maker used the clay to make another pot that pleased him.

5 Then the Word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 “O people of Israel, can I not do with you as this potmaker has done?” says the Lord. “Like the clay in the pot-maker’s hand, so are you in My hand, O people of Israel. 7 If at any time I speak about a nation, to pull up, and to break down and to destroy, 8 and if that nation I spoke against turns from its sin, then I will change My mind about the trouble I planned to bring upon it. 9 If at another time I speak about a nation, that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does what is sinful in My eyes by not obeying My voice, then I will change My mind about the good I had promised to bring to it. 11 So now speak to the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. Tell them, ‘The Lord says, “See, I am making trouble for you and making a plan against you. So each of you turn from your sinful way. Change your ways and your works.”’ 12 But they will say, ‘There is no hope! For we are going to follow our own plans. Each of us will act in the strong-will of his sinful heart.’

Great verses about God's Sovereignty over the affairs of men. It has nothing to do with salvation, however. Context is important.

 

[Imalive]

I explained it in the rest of my comment. Perhaps, next time, you quote the entire comment so you don't have to ask the question.

Man's will defeats Gods will, you said. Agree.
But that doesn't make God less.
For themselves it's a pity, but then He just uses them for His salvation plan anyway, like Pharao, Jude, the pharisees.

 

[MennoSota]

I see, one little free will "no" to grace means God is not omniscient and omnipotent. Freedom is mighty powerful then. Like a rock too heavy for God to lift and a a problem too difficult for God to solve (for example a triangle with more (or less) than three angels).

Why do you imagine you are free?
God says you and I are either slaves to sin or servants of the most high God. This notion of freedom and autonomy is not stated in scripture. Whom do you serve?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do you imagine you are free?
God says you and I are either slaves to sin or servants of the most high God. This notion of freedom and autonomy is not stated in scripture. Whom do you serve?

Seems people are free to choose who they will be a slave to. That's one tiny bit of freedom and MennoSota appears to claim that one tiny bit of freedom is mighty enough to overthrow God.

A little bit of Kerk wisdom in a very "American" form

 

[MennoSota]

Man's will defeats Gods will, you said. Agree.
But that doesn't make God less.
For themselves it's a pity, but then He just uses them for His salvation plan anyway, like Pharao, Jude, the pharisees.

Yes, it makes God impotent to the will of man. The will of man becomes God's kryptonite, which incapacitates Him and puts Him under the rule of man.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, it makes God impotent to the will of man. The will of man becomes God's kryptonite, which incapacitates Him and puts Him under the rule of man.

Imagine that, God tamed by a little "no" to grace given.

 

[MennoSota]

Seems people are free to choose who they will be a slave to. That's one tiny bit of freedom and MennoSota appears to claim that one tiny bit of freedom is mighty enough to overthrow God.

They aren't. Either you are a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Freedom is your illusion of grandeur you create to make your own self a god. The first commandment gets broken by you as you set up your own god in place of the almighty. You become a slave to sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

They aren't. Either you are a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Freedom is your illusion of grandeur you create to make your own self a god. The first commandment gets broken by you as you set up your own god in place of the almighty. You become a slave to sin.

Is God powerful enough to give freedom to a creature?

 

[psalms 91]

Its called free will and we can refusr Gods plan of salvation as evidenced by so many going to hell. God also has foreknowledge of our choices so in that sense yes there is predestination but we still have free will and no God is not defeated at all as He already knows just as He knew from the beginning that Jesus was needed to redeem us. If I would accept predestination as some have said it then there would be no need of a saviour as God would just pick and choose

 

[Imalive]

They aren't. Either you are a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Freedom is your illusion of grandeur you create to make your own self a god. The first commandment gets broken by you as you set up your own god in place of the almighty. You become a slave to sin.

Being a slave to God is the same as being free.

 

[Imalive]

Yes, it makes God impotent to the will of man. The will of man becomes God's kryptonite, which incapacitates Him and puts Him under the rule of man.

He let Himself be put under the rule of man. He let them crucify Him.
Didn't really work, ruling God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Its called free will and we can refuse Gods plan of salvation as evidenced by so many going to hell. God also has foreknowledge of our choices so in that sense yes there is predestination but we still have free will and no God is not defeated at all as He already knows just as He knew from the beginning that Jesus was needed to redeem us. If I would accept predestination as some have said it then there would be no need of a saviour as God would just pick and choose

[MENTION=43]psalms 91[/MENTION] at its heart predestination is a mystery well out of reach of human beings to properly comprehend so it is, in my opinion, wise to acknowledge God's almighty all knowing omnipresence without any pretense to understand it. God knows what will happen but we do not so we freely choose our course in life and do not know the mystery that is hidden in God about us and our future. The holy scriptures tell us that. Moses told Israel that when he was inspired to teach

These are the terms of the covenant the LORD commanded Moses to make with the Israelites in Moab, in addition to the covenant he had made with them at Horeb. Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them: Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God. When you reached this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out to fight against us, but we defeated them. We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh. Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do. All of you are standing today in the presence of the LORD your God--your leaders and chief men, your elders and officials, and all the other men of Israel, together with your children and your wives, and the aliens living in your camps who chop your wood and carry your water. You are standing here in order to enter into a covenant with the LORD your God, a covenant the LORD is making with you this day and sealing with an oath, to confirm you this day as his people, that he may be your God as he promised you and as he swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you who are standing here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God but also with those who are not here today. You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison. When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, "I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way." This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. The LORD will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law. Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it. The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?" And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. Therefore the LORD's anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. In furious anger and in great wrath the LORD uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now." The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. [Deuteronomy 29:1-29]
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