Who IS and IS NOT a Christian?

[Lamb]

Josiah, now that I understand your purpose of the thread I will post differently. For this site's purpose, those who adhere to the Statement of Faith should be considered "Christian" here and not be questioned in the threads. Does that help?

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, now that I understand your purpose of the thread I will post differently. For this site's purpose, those who adhere to the Statement of Faith should be considered "Christian" here and not be questioned in the threads. Does that help?

Lamm -


It is my understanding that community matters are to be discussed in the community matters forum. IF my intent (as a poster here) was to discuss the polity, that's where I would have brought it up. IF I wanted to discuss this with the polity maker (Romanos) I'd take it up with him (probably in a PM or since I'm on staff in a private staff thread, NOT in public). Yes, this thread WAS motivated in part by a few posts of late here (I thought it relevant to our community) but was never addressed to any other issue. Are we good? Moving on.... back to the topic....


As posts 1, 3 and 18 I hope make VERY clear, I have no issue whatsoever with the Nicene Creed being used to define what doctrines/teachings are allowed and disallowed in a setting. That's EXACTLY what the Creed was written for and how it has been used for 1700 years. For Lutherans, the 3 Creeds are a part of our Confessions (which as a whole serve that purpose for Lutherans). But MY OPINION is that it is not the identification of a Christian (again, I reference posts 1, 3 and 18) but that's MY OPINION. This is a discussion forum, I welcome and invite and encourage other views,

BTW, I never mentioned the Nicene Creed in the opening post....


Follow me ????


- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

For members who are questioning the salvation other members in the forums and these members adhere to the Nicene Creed, then it is frowned upon by us as staff. That's my point. They should stop. Our protocol is usually to PM those members to let them know that, for example, Roman Catholics are considered Christian on this site and they need to stop questioning their salvation.

There is a LOT of shouting among people in Christian settings about who IS and IS NOT a Christian. We've had a bit of that lately even here at CH. I thought it would be good to discuss that, as a community.

 

[Albion]

This thread seems to me to have gone completely off the rails, but OTOH, that's not the end of the world.

However, if anyone wants to reconstruct the line of thinking...

I believe that Josiah was prompted to start this thread because of posts 35 and 36 of another thread, "Nondenominational churches." And the point that got confused concerned how the word Christian is to be understood.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[MennoSota]

As long as we all reject the Council of Trent...we're good.

 

[MennoSota]

By the way...how come it took the LC until they got to Missouri to get things straight?

 

[Josiah]

This thread seems to me to have gone completely off the rails, but OTOH, that's not the end of the world.

However, if anyone wants to reconstruct the line of thinking...

I believe that Josiah was prompted to start this thread because of posts 35 and 36 of another thread, "Nondenominational churches." And the point that got confused concerned how the word Christian is to be understood.

Well, Lamm misunderstood my intent - and I think we're good.

My intent is because for as long as I can remember, there have been shouts between persons who identify themselves as Christians that "You aren't Christian!" "You need to get saved!" That has been leveled at ME PERSONALLY too (both when I was a Catholic and now that I'm Lutheran).

Yes, of late, we've had 3 or 4 threads where this has been seen, so I felt this topic was relevant here, but that's not the specific prompt.

The issue, Albion, is the one I state in the opening post. My posts #3 and 18 probably clarify MY position as well. But I meant and mean it as a DISCUSSION among us.....



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

There's nothing wrong with the thread as it started off, except that, if it was a spinoff from the other thread, "non-denominational churches," which I believe it to have been, then it needed definition 3. in addition.

That's because that is the usage which is most common, it's how I had used the word, and it's why I was opposed by Snerfle immediate thereafter--leading to all the rest of this.

To elaborate on that a bit, "Christian" normally is used to mean the faith one acknowledges as his own, regardless of whether he's a true believer or something less. But as soon as I'd written what I did, the discussion turned to including an evaluation of the Christian's heart, sincerity, and so on. What makes one a true Christian instead of a nominal Christian, IOW.
.

 

[MoreCoffee]

..., the discussion turned to including an evaluation of the Christian's heart, sincerity, and so on. What makes one a true Christian instead of a nominal Christian, IOW.
.

It may be a myth but didn't Elizabeth I assert that she didn't make windows into men's souls meaning the she didn't even want to pretend to know who was a "true christian" in motives and beliefs if it was not evident from their profession of faith and actions. No law maker nor any Christian ought to be spending their days announcing judgements about the real motives and real faith (or lack of it) in others.

 

[NewCreation435]

Many people in the Baptist faith that I have been a part of for the better part of my Christian life would say they are a Christian because at some point they prayed a prayer trusting Jesus as their Savior. Many of those people are church attenders, but some are not. Most would say they try their best to live for God.
I think ultimately we will find out that maybe people who call themselves believers are not truly saved, but were relying on a prayer to save them instead of the Lord. It is a matter of where you place your faith and trust. Do you trust in yourself or the Lord to save you?

 

[MennoSota]

We cannot know, by label, if a person is a Christian or not.
We can discern that a person who denies the deity of Christ has no connection to the head of the church. Saddly, we see many denominations that deny the deity of Jesus. Some have taken to calling themselves "secular Christians" as a delineation.
We can discern from theology whether a person's church makes presuppositions that we do not ourselves make. We can question the logic and legitimacy of those presuppositions. But, only God knows whom he has chosen. And frankly, God has chosen rebels who are being sanctified throughout our lives. This means we are scoundrels by nature, calling others...scoundrels. It means that all the while we work to rightly divide the word of God we also display our rebel nature. It is this corruption that moment by moment requires God's grace to sustain us and keep us from falling. It is God's grace that humbles us and reminds us how far from holiness we reside.

 

[NewCreation435]

We cannot know, by label, if a person is a Christian or not.
We can discern that a person who denies the deity of Christ has no connection to the head of the church. Saddly, we see many denominations that deny the deity of Jesus. Some have taken to calling themselves "secular Christians" as a delineation.
We can discern from theology whether a person's church makes presuppositions that we do not ourselves make. We can question the logic and legitimacy of those presuppositions. But, only God knows whom he has chosen. And frankly, God has chosen rebels who are being sanctified throughout our lives. This means we are scoundrels by nature, calling others...scoundrels. It means that all the while we work to rightly divide the word of God we also display our rebel nature. It is this corruption that moment by moment requires God's grace to sustain us and keep us from falling. It is God's grace that humbles us and reminds us how far from holiness we reside.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I was wondering who calls themselves "secular christian"? I'm not even sure what that means.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not saying your wrong, but I was wondering who calls themselves "secular christian"? I'm not even sure what that means.

My wife's cousin who grew up Mennonite has become a progressive liberal, social gospel advocate. She labels herself a secular Christian. It seems like an oxymoron to me.

 

[Josiah]

No law maker and nor any Christian ought to be spending their days announcing judgements about the real motives and real faith (or lack of it) in others.

I agree.


I think Matthew Harrison (the president of the LCMS), Pope Francis and Billy Graham would have coffee together.... and could find things they disagree about.... and could admit sins (and perhaps even doubts and struggles).... and consider the others to all be Christians - brothers with whom they will spend eternity in Heaven. I hope we all can.

I doubt if Christians will ever resolve all our variant opinions and feelings, but I do hope we can end the hate, meanness, and shouts of "You need to get saved! You are going the hell!" I think we've made a LOT of progress on this in the past years but we have more work to do (including on the internet).



- Josiah

 

[Imalive]

My wife's cousin who grew up Mennonite has become a progressive liberal, social gospel advocate. She labels herself a secular Christian. It seems like an oxymoron to me.

Oh I first thought you were a mennonite because of your name.

 

[Imalive]

I agree.


I think Matthew Harrison (the president of the LCMS), Pope Francis and Billy Graham would have coffee together.... and could find things they disagree about.... and could admit sins (and perhaps even doubts and struggles).... and consider the others to all be Christians - brothers with whom they will spend eternity in Heaven. I hope we all can.

I doubt if Christians will ever resolve all our variant opinions and feelings, but I do hope we can end the hate, meanness, and shouts of "You need to get saved! You are going the hell!" I think we've made a LOT of progress on this in the past years but we have more work to do (including on the internet).



- Josiah

You need to get saved! Say: I confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead and confess your sins!! Oh wait. I find that so dumb. That's what the sinners prayer is. As if another believer is like: Oh really? God raised Him from the dead? Never heard of that.

 

[MennoSota]

Oh I first thought you were a mennonite because of your name.

My background and history is in the Mennonite community. There is much good in the community, but also some theological presuppositions that are not well supported in scripture.

 

[Albion]

I have never belonged to a church that uses the Sinner's Prayer and I'm not at all interested in altar calls or most of what goes along with that variety of Christianity, BUT I do think that the Sinner's Prayer is too readily ridiculed.

It's not as though this prayer is floating around, printed on a handout or something like that, in case anyone wants at a moment's notice to be saved for all eternity. Just take it out of your wallet and recite it, and you're home free. Or that any time you hear a preacher saying to get saved, reciting this prayer is all there is to it.

The Sinner's Prayer is a simple affirmation of a commitment made by a convert after having been convinced by the Bible, reason, etc. at the hands of a preacher. IF there is such a conversion experience (as was the case with several figures from the New Testament who heard, believed, and were baptized), then the person is encouraged to make a public witness of that commitment. He could use a different prayer, in theory. And then he is customarily directed to other preachers or evangelists--or to a local church--for additional instruction in the faith.

To my mind, it is unfair to churches using the Sinner's Prayer to talk as though there's some 'slam, bam, thank you Jesus' system at work.

 

[MennoSota]

It's not as though this prayer is floating around, printed on a handout or something like that, in case anyone wants at a moment's notice to be saved for all eternity. Just take it out of your wallet and recite it, and you're home free. Or that any time you hear a preacher saying to get saved, reciting this prayer is all there is to it.

Actually, it is in many tracts used for evangelism. "Just repeat after me..."