the meaning of Baptism

[Josiah]

Baptism comes after going and making disciples, no matter how you slice it.

You have NOTHING that says that..... Which is why you've not offered a single verse that states that.

 

[Albion]

No it doesn't...The norm for baptism in a Christian community is infant baptism by pouring the water of baptism over their head and the Spirit completes the baptism by indwelling the recipient.

That isn't going to persuade our friend or show his belief to be based upon a mistake in reasoning or his reading of Scripture, but sometimes it's necessary to lay one's own position out in plain language before the discussion becomes completely confused.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That isn't going to persuade our friend or show his belief to be based upon a mistake in reasoning or his reading of Scripture, but sometimes it's necessary to lay one's own position out in plain language before the discussion becomes completely confused.

Do you think this might work ... holy scripture says baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. So obviously one baptises first and then teaches. The holy scripture says so.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Do you think this might work ... holy scripture says baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. So obviously one baptises first and then teaches. The holy scripture says so.

^^ This. The Sacrament of Holy Baptism regenerates the soul and brings one into the life of faith.

 

[Albion]

My view is that infant baptism is acceptable and, more than that, important to do. However, that's not to say that we can make it be what every verse the New Testament that deals with Baptism was talking about. Quite obviously, when the first Christians went forth to convert the world, it was adults to whom they presented their case. Those who converted brought along their families with the agreement of the missionaries who baptized them all. We continue that practice, baptizing both adults and children.

 

[MoreCoffee]

My view is that infant baptism is acceptable and, more than that, important to do. However, that's not to say that we can make it be what every verse the New Testament that deals with Baptism was talking about. Quite obviously, when the first Christians went forth to convert the world, it was adults to whom they presented their case. Those who converted brought along their families with the agreement of the missionaries who baptized them all. We continue that practice, baptizing both adults and children.

Well Albion, sometimes it is helpful to put forward a silly argument to illustrate how silly one's interlocutor's argument is (it being based on the same "solid foundation" as one's silly argument). It's just not possible, in my experience, to persuade a credobaptist to even acknowledge the biblical basis for paedobaptism until the credobaptist begins to see the foolishness of arguing from Mark 16 for belief first then baptism "because the bible says so".

 

[MennoSota]

Of course it is, I wrote it to match the intellectual content of your arguments in favour of whatever theory you're attempting to foist upon us.

Besides holy scripture says baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. So obviously one baptises first and then teaches. The holy scripture says so.

God never taught infant baptism.

Yes, people are baptized as an outward expression of what God has already done.
Do you actually believe in baptismal regeneration even though the Bible doesn't teach it?

 

[MennoSota]

You have NOTHING that says that..... Which is why you've not offered a single verse that states that.

The text provides it for us, Josiah.
Josiah, you believe that dead men cannot choose, correct? Do you believe that if you sprinkle your spiritually dead neighbor with water and call it baptism that he is regenerated by your act? I doubt you do.
Why then do you teach that about infants?

 

[Josiah]

Matthew 28:19-20

NOT "but you are forbidden to go... baptize... teach those under the magical age of X"
NOT "but don't baptize with water but only dunk them with the Holy Spirit."
NOT "but those one day short of their 12th birthday met the glory and standard of God and thus don't need no grace, mercy, Jesus or salvation."
NOT "do this but it's a worthless waste of your time and water - it has NO importance and don't do nothing"



Yes, to insist that some can't be baptize and taught because they can't yet do what is needed for them to save themselves is synergism and a denial of the central Christian truth that Jesus is the Savior.




.

 

[Josiah]

God never taught infant baptism.

God never restricted going and baptizing and teaching to those over the magical age of X which is why you can't provide a Scripture to support your prohibition. Just the standard Anabaptist mantra since the 16th Century. God never said that going... baptizing .. teaching" has "no spiritual value" as you stated if the receiver is under the age of X.

See post 169

 

[MoreCoffee]

God never taught infant baptism.

God taught me paedobaptism. I was even baptised a Lutheran! But I got better

:smirk:

Yes, people are baptized as an outward expression of what God has already done.

No, no no. Not what God has already done. Rather it is what God is doing at the moment of baptism. The holy scriptures teach that baptism unites to Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-9) and that baptism saves like being in the ark saved Noah's family as the waters of the flood washed the world clean (1 Peter 3:21) (and even the outside of the ark itself was washed clean by the waters). The Lord Jesus Christ says that one is born from above in the water and Spirit thus Christians have always understood baptism to be the washing of regeneration by the Word (Jesus being the incarnate Word) as Paul calls it (Titus 3:5).

Do you actually believe in baptismal regeneration even though the Bible doesn't teach it?

 

[MennoSota]

NOT "but you are forbidden to go... baptize... teach those under the magical age of X"
NOT "but don't baptize with water but only dunk them with the Holy Spirit."
NOT "but those one day short of their 12th birthday met the glory and standard of God and thus don't need no grace, mercy, Jesus or salvation."
NOT "do this but it's a worthless waste of your time and water - it has NO importance and don't do nothing"



Yes, to insist that some can't be baptize and taught because they can't yet do what is needed for them to save themselves is synergism and a denial of the central Christian truth that Jesus is the Savior.

Again no one is forbidding baptism. I am saying that there is NO regenerative properties in baptism. Infants are not spared hell by being baptized.
If infants are spared hell it is purely by the grace of God that the little rebels are redeemed.
To teach baptism as a means of salvation is an outright twisting of scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

God never restricted going and baptizing and teaching to those over the magical age of X which is why you can't provide a Scripture to support your prohibition. Just the standard Anabaptist mantra since the 16th Century. God never said that going... baptizing .. teaching" has "no spiritual value" as you stated if the receiver is under the age of X.

See post 169

You cannot prove that your action of baptizing a person therefore saves them. I tell you that you cheapen grace and preach works salvation. Consider your teaching.

I will state for the umpteenth time that no one has set a specific age when God chooses to reveal his adoption to his chosen child. But, it is not in our power to force God to choose an infant simply because we sprinkle them and have a ceremony at church.

 

[Albion]

God never taught infant baptism.

Yes, people are baptized as an outward expression of what God has already done.

That's true. They've been misled by their churches, but it's true that some Christians do just that.

Do you actually believe in baptismal regeneration even though the Bible doesn't teach it?

We say that the Bible does teach it. In addition, I know for a fact that the Bible does NOT teach that it's nothing more than something you do in order to show that you've made a decision for Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You cannot prove that your action of baptizing a person therefore saves them. I tell you that you cheapen grace and preach works salvation. ...

You really need to get over being afraid of good works done in God's grace. Really you do. It is not wicked to do good as God leads you. It's good. Stop being afraid of goodness.

 

[MennoSota]

God taught me paedobaptism. I was even baptised a Lutheran! But I got better

:smirk:



No, no no. Not what God has already done. Rather it is what God is doing at the moment of baptism. The holy scriptures teach that baptism unites to Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-9) and that baptism saves like being in the ark saved Noah's family as the waters of the flood washed the world clean (1 Peter 3:21) (and even the outside of the ark itself was washed clean by the waters). The Lord Jesus Christ says that one is born from above in the water and Spirit thus Christians have always understood baptism to be the washing of regeneration by the Word (Jesus being the incarnate Word) as Paul calls it (Titus 3:5).

You preach salvation by works MC. You make Jesus death on the cross of no avail. It is your shame.

 

[MennoSota]

That's true. They've been misled by their churches, but it's true that some Christians do just that.


We say that the Bible does teach it. In addition, I know for a fact that the Bible does NOT teach that it's nothing more than something you do in order to show that you've made a decision for Christ.

Your last sentence promotes salvation by works. That is never taught in scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

You really need to get over being afraid of good works done in God's grace. Really you do. It is not wicked to do good as God leads you. It's good. Stop being afraid of goodness.

I praise God for His grace. I praise God that in Christ my works are considered righteous rather than rotten.
Apart from Christ all works are rotten and are of no contribution to one's standing with God. Apart from Christ you stand utterly condemned.

 

[Albion]

Your last sentence promotes salvation by works.

No, it doesn't. And I didn't say anything at all there about works.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You preach salvation by works MC. ...

You really need to get over being afraid of good works done in God's grace. Really you do. It is not wicked to do good as God leads you. It's good. Stop being afraid of goodness.

I was baptised by a pastor so it was not my work to baptise - the pastor did the work and I was the passive recipient of his baptising work and the Holy Spirit's baptising presence and the Lord Jesus Christ's baptising work. Good works bear good fruit and so in time and in God's grace I was taught to do all the things that Jesus commanded. It is all of grace [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] not a bit by my own works so I can never boast of accomplishments that made salvation my due reward.