the meaning of Baptism

[Imalive]

So, the magical age is 12? We can't go to or baptize or teach anyone not yet 12?

So, those 11 and under met God glory and thus the Bible is wrong when it say, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"
So, those 11 and under are heaven bound without Jesus so Jesus was wrong when He said, "no one comes to the Father except by me" cuz they don't need no Jesus?

Or are there TWO ways to heaven: Don't reach the age of 12 or Jesus?

I think that's why they say that. Jewish boys had bar mitswa w 13 I think. I don't think that's the magical age, bit that could be the reasoning. My 3 y o didn't get it when his 5 y o brother wanted to force him to ask forgiveness for his sins and accept Jesus' offer. Jesus said: become like little kids, otherwise you can't receive the Kingdom. It is for such. Sinning is breaking God's commandments. A baby can't do that.

 

[Imalive]

Babies have been observed lying by age 6 months.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...9/Babies-not-as-innocent-as-they-pretend.html

6 months? Most can't even talk w 6 months.
Oh.. fake crying lol.

 

[Josiah]

I think that's why they say that. Jewish boys had bar mitswa w 13 I think. I don't think that's the magical age, bit that could be the reasoning.

So... the BIBLE says "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." The BIBLE says "NO ONE comes to the Father except by Me." And the Bible never so much as mentions "age of accountability".... never says that those under 12 have no sin and are God's moral and loving equal... never says that those under 12 go to heaven with Jesus having anything to do with it.... we are forbidden to go to or baptize or teach any under the age of 12.... teaching and baptism are a waste of time and of no value... the Bible says NONE of that. Yet.....

I think what Jews may have once thought is not the point, it's what Christ said, what the Bible says.... and there's noting about those under 12 being spiritually alive, being morally perfect and holy and loving equal to God, about two ways to heaven: Don't turn 12 or Jesus.

Sinning is breaking God's commandments. A baby can't do that.

No. Being DEAD is being dead and needing to be given life, to be given regeneration....
No. ALL being sinful and falling short of God is being sinful and falling short....

The Law is that we must be perfect as God is, Holy as God is, as loving as God is. Is a baby?
ALL have sinned and fall short of God. Are babies part of ALL?

 

[Imalive]

So, the magical age is 12? We can't go to or baptize or teach anyone not yet 12?

So, those 11 and under met God glory and thus the Bible is wrong when it say, "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?"
So, those 11 and under are heaven bound without Jesus so Jesus was wrong when He said, "no one comes to the Father except by me" cuz they don't need no Jesus?

Or are there TWO ways to heaven: Don't reach the age of 12 or Jesus?

Not or Jesus. They can't reject Him, well babies can't.

 

[Imalive]

Copied the texts from the link:
Isaiah 7

16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Did Jesus say we should become like little sinners?

Jeremiah 19

and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal,

 

[MennoSota]

6 months? Most can't even talk w 6 months.
Oh.. fake crying lol.

Yep, manipulation of parents as early as possible.

 

[Lamb]

I have explained this, but you keep thinking that the only baptism is water baptism when in fact the Spirit baptizes...no water needed.

No, you absolutely have not addressed what Jesus said when He told the disciples how to make new disciples by baptizing and teaching. Do you or do you not believe that God makes those new disciples by baptizing and teaching? Or does God only do teaching but not baptizing? Is that your thinking because that is what you're claiming on this thread.

 

[Imalive]

Yep, manipulation of parents as early as possible.

Lol then mine was holy. He wanted to sit in his box and not be bothered. I picked him up too much. My children never cried as babies, only if there was really something the matter. They had no chance lol.

 

[Imalive]

No, you absolutely have not addressed what Jesus said when He told the disciples how to make new disciples by baptizing and teaching. Do you or do you not believe that God makes those new disciples by baptizing and teaching? Or does God only do teaching but not baptizing? Is that your thinking because that is what you're claiming on this thread.

The disciples taught and baptized, God through them.

 

[Imalive]

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Deuteronomy 1:39
Verse Concepts
'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Matthew 18:3
Verse Concepts
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

2 Samuel 12:22-23
He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.' "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Mark 10:13-14
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

 

[MennoSota]

No, you absolutely have not addressed what Jesus said when He told the disciples how to make new disciples by baptizing and teaching. Do you or do you not believe that God makes those new disciples by baptizing and teaching? Or does God only do teaching but not baptizing? Is that your thinking because that is what you're claiming on this thread.

Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Notice the command to go and make disciples. There is no "by" found in the passage.
What Jesus says is to baptize the disciples in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. He also says to teach these new disciples all the commands Jesus had taught them.

There is no "by." That is your addition and your misreading of the text.
Second, nowhere is baptism taught as regenerational, which seems to be what you are teaching in infant baptism.
As I have stated...how many times...if you want to baptize a child as a means of dedication to raising the child in the ways of God and be its mentor, I see no reason against it. It's just water, it'll dry off. But, if you are baptizing with the idea that it's regenerational, then you remove grace and make salvation by works.

 

[MennoSota]

Lol then mine was holy. He wanted to sit in his box and not be bothered. I picked him up too much. My children never cried as babies, only if there was really something the matter. They had no chance lol.

You were likely too exhausted to notice...☺

 

[Lamb]

Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Notice the command to go and make disciples. There is no "by" found in the passage.
What Jesus says is to baptize the disciples in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. He also says to teach these new disciples all the commands Jesus had taught them.

There is no "by." That is your addition and your misreading of the text.
Second, nowhere is baptism taught as regenerational, which seems to be what you are teaching in infant baptism.
As I have stated...how many times...if you want to baptize a child as a means of dedication to raising the child in the ways of God and be its mentor, I see no reason against it. It's just water, it'll dry off. But, if you are baptizing with the idea that it's regenerational, then you remove grace and make salvation by works.

So you reject that Jesus is telling the disciples how they are going to make new disciples? So teaching isn't going to make new disciples either according to your thought process

 

[Lamb]

Matthew 28:19-20
[19]Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
[20]Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Notice the command to go and make disciples. There is no "by" found in the passage.
What Jesus says is to baptize the disciples in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. He also says to teach these new disciples all the commands Jesus had taught them.

There is no "by." That is your addition and your misreading of the text.
Second, nowhere is baptism taught as regenerational, which seems to be what you are teaching in infant baptism.
As I have stated...how many times...if you want to baptize a child as a means of dedication to raising the child in the ways of God and be its mentor, I see no reason against it. It's just water, it'll dry off. But, if you are baptizing with the idea that it's regenerational, then you remove grace and make salvation by works.

Also, YOU have changed the wording in your head to read "go and make disciples THEN baptize and teach them". That's not what the text says.

 

[MennoSota]

So you reject that Jesus is telling the disciples how they are going to make new disciples? So teaching isn't going to make new disciples either according to your thought process

Why are you pushing baptismal regeneration? It's certainly not being taught in Mathew 28.

New disciples are made by preaching the gospel (1 Corinthians 15). The cause is God's making them alive.
The effect of that work by God is the obedient response of water baptism and teaching the new believers. Baptism does not come before God's work of regeneration. Why are you attempting to make it something that it is not?

 

[MennoSota]

Also, YOU have changed the wording in your head to read "go and make disciples THEN baptize and teach them". That's not what the text says.

Baptism comes after going and making disciples, no matter how you slice it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Baptism comes after going and making disciples, no matter how you slice it.

No it doesn't. It comes after you've been made a disciple so you can baptise others including your infant children and other Christians' infant children. The norm for baptism in a Christian community is infant baptism by pouring the water of baptism over their head and the Spirit completes the baptism by indwelling the recipient.

 

[MennoSota]

No it doesn't. It come after you've been made a disciple so you can baptise others including your infant children and other Christians' infant children. The norm for baptism in a Christian community is infant baptism by pouring the water of baptism over their head and the Spirit completes the baptism by indwelling the recipient.

MC, Your comment is just silly.
Infant baptism is nowhere to be found in scripture. It is another magical mystery tour made up by the papes and their henchmen. It may give you a warm squishy feeling, but so does crapping your pants.
The biblical presentation of baptism is always with adults who were made alive in Christ. That's the norm. The abnormal is imagining there is baptismal regeneration of infants.

 

[Josiah]

Not or Jesus. They can't reject Him, well babies can't.

Really? So, babies are all Christians, all have faith in Christ, all are born again and regenerate? What Scripture says that?

The Bible says, "NO ONE can even say 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit so enables." So that's wrong? Actually, all who are at least one day short of their 12th Birthday know this and are regenerate? Is that what Ephesians 2:8-9 says?

So there is two ways to heaven? Be at least one day short of your 12th birthday OR Jesus?

 

[MoreCoffee]

MC, Your comment is just silly.
...

Of course it is, I wrote it to match the intellectual content of your arguments in favour of whatever theory you're attempting to foist upon us.

Besides holy scripture says baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age. So obviously one baptises first and then teaches. The holy scripture says so.