Purgatory?

[MennoSota]

Jesus is God and people saw Jesus yet they did not see God they saw God incarnate with his glory veiled in human flesh. Don't you read the bible? You seem hell bent on saying things that are unbiblical just to "prove yourself right". Honestly, can't you ever admit to being mistaken?

So...Peter, John and James did not see his glory? Gideon did not see his glory? Are you not reading your bible?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So...Peter, John and James did not see his glory? Gideon did not see his glory? Are you not reading your bible?

Never mind. It's time for dusting.

 

[MennoSota]

Menno I see what you are saying about wretchedness, I have beaten myself up before to the point of having a few surgeries in a year, what God has delivered from me is a blessing but I do seek further deliverance by grace. Today I feel a bit weak but I pray that my more joyful days are still to come. Can you explain tho what your definition of works is? Like specific examples, is prayer and repentance a form of works? I believe God does the impossible but are we not to be willing with mind body and soul? Salvation is won but should not we fear God even so?
I have an issue with pleasing others and its a lot like the guy in the video imalive posted. I usher 3 times a week, no problem but I feel they expect more, I also go to bible study once a week and have been asked to support tithing and to involve myself in the future in Out Reach, going from house to house for converts. The out reach is something I am not considering, I see it as a lost cause and its not the same as charity as I read in the bible.
I fear overkill not for myself but for true converts not to withdrawal in such a short time. I work 10 hours a day sometimes more, I am helping out my dad financially because he is not working due to neck surgery. Feeling burnt out sounds like the works you describe, I love my brothers but I am starting to feel like they want to save people just for themselves, I am however not so pushy but stand firm in my faith and views.
I ask you these things and I must confess that I should not have lashed out the way I did in previous post, regardless if you think my views are heretical and pagan and so forth. I need to reconsider and deeply ask you sincerely what "works" means to you for the sake of future consideration.

Any attempt to gain God's approval by our actions is a work, not God's grace. Any idea that God's salvation is incomplete unless I do something (i.e. confess, repent, ask forgiveness) is works salvation, not grace.
Confession, repentance, forgiveness, etc., is a part of our fellowship with God and our sanctification, it is not a requirement for salvation. To say they are is to add works to salvation and remove grace.
Grace is God freely giving us what we don't deserve.
Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve.

 

[Andrew]

So...Peter, John and James did not see his glory? Gideon did not see his glory? Are you not reading your bible?

Jesus is the image of the invisible God. As man and God his glory is confined to the fleshy suit and fleshy mouth but Godly wisdom and Godly words. This is why it is so beautiful for our God to limit himself to a human body and walk with us and talk with us to start his church here on earth through his witnesses. If we as man actually could hear the almighty audible voice of the invisible (to man) God, our heads would literally explode

 

[MennoSota]

Never mind. It's time for dusting.

Good to see you walk away. Checkmate.

 

[Andrew]

Any attempt to gain God's approval by our actions is a work, not God's grace. Any idea that God's salvation is incomplete unless I do something (i.e. confess, repent, ask forgiveness) is works salvation, not grace.
Confession, repentance, forgiveness, etc., is a part of our fellowship with God and our sanctification, it is not a requirement for salvation. To say they are is to add works to salvation and remove grace.
Grace is God freely giving us what we don't deserve.
Mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve.

So you believe in once saved always saved?

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus is the image of the invisible God. As man and God his glory is confined to the fleshy suit and fleshy mouth but Godly wisdom and Godly words. This is why it is so beautiful for our God to limit himself to a human body and walk with us and talk with us to start his church here on earth through his witnesses. If we as man actually could hear the almighty audible voice of the invisible (to man) God, our heads would literally explode

No...they would not literally explode.
Moses talked with God, heard his voice and was in his presence. His head did not literally explode. It glowed...but it did not explode.

 

[Andrew]

No...they would not literally explode.
Moses talked with God, heard his voice and was in his presence. His head did not literally explode. It glowed...but it did not explode.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exodus 33:19-20

Ok but his face might make your head explode... nevermind lol

 

[Imalive]

So...Peter, John and James did not see his glory? Gideon did not see his glory? Are you not reading your bible?

They saw Jesus glorified. Stephen saw the glory of the Father when he died and Jesus at His right hand.

For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.

 

[MennoSota]

They saw Jesus glorified. Stephen saw the glory of the Father when he died and Jesus at His right hand.

Right. God graciously revealed his glory.
I agree that the general concept is that humans would die if the looked upon the glory of God, but we see these gracious times when God chooses not to kill those who witness his glory.
Our God is very gracious.

 

[Imalive]

Right. God graciously revealed his glory.
I agree that the general concept is that humans would die if the looked upon the glory of God, but we see these gracious times when God chooses not to kill those who witness his glory.
Our God is very gracious.

I just tried to say that I thought, since I dont know what is meant with that fire (not purgatory, maybe tribulations now or being purified, baptized in fire) that maybe in the end when we all have grown to a perfect man and see Him face to face He burns stuff away w those who get saved through fire. It was just a thought. Maybe not.

 

[Albion]

That's a more likely interpretation than that something like Purgatory exists.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good to see you walk away. Checkmate.

Holy scripture advises it. Jesus told his disciples to do it.

Matthew 10:11-15* And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. *12* As you enter the house, greet it. *13* And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. *14* And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. *15* Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgement for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.​

(red letter edition)

 

[MennoSota]

Holy scripture advises it. Jesus told his disciples to do it.

Matthew 10:11-15* And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. *12* As you enter the house, greet it. *13* And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. *14* And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. *15* Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgement for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.​

(red letter edition)

You assume that you are one who is following Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You assume that you are one who is following Jesus.

I see that you're not accepting what holy scripture says. See 1 John 4:12

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The context (something you seem to struggle with) informs us.

1 John 4:4-19
[4]But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.
[5]Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them.
[6]But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception.
[7]Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God.
[8]But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
[9]God showed how much he loved us by sending his one and only Son into the world so that we might have eternal life through him.
[10]This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
[11]Dear friends, since God loved us that much, we surely ought to love each other.
[12]No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us.
[13]And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us.
[14]Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
[15]All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.
[16]We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love.God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.
[17]And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.
[18]Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.
[19]We love each other because he loved us first.

Nothing in the text fits with your assertion. Care to try again or accept checkmate?

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] - who are "those people" that John is referring to in the passage. It has as much to do with context as what you've quoted (which has nothing [as far as context] to do with MC's point)

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION] - who are "those people" that John is referring to in the passage. It has as much to do with context as what you've quoted (which has nothing [as far as context] to do with MC's point)

Gnostics

1 John 4:1-3
[1]Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.
[2]This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God.
[3]But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Gnostics

1 John 4:1-3
[1]Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.
[2]This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God.
[3]But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.

So John was correcting false teaching/teachers in the church - that's the true context of the passage (and, in fact, much of 1 John).

Now that context is clear, you stated earlier that:

God graciously revealed his glory.
I agree that the general concept is that humans would die if the looked upon the glory of God, but we see these gracious times when God chooses not to kill those who witness his glory.
Our God is very gracious.

The way God graciously reveals his glory, according to 1 John, is exactly the way scripture states it -

This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
Dear friends, since God loved us that much, we surely ought to love each other.
No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us. (1 Jn. 4:10-12)

His glory is not seen by us (no one has ever seen God), but it is "...brought to full expression in us" (through his love) if we love each other.

 

[MennoSota]

So John was correcting false teaching/teachers in the church - that's the true context of the passage (and, in fact, much of 1 John).

Now that context is clear, you stated earlier that:



The way God graciously reveals his glory, according to 1 John, is exactly the way scripture states it -

This is real love—not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as a sacrifice to take away our sins.
Dear friends, since God loved us that much, we surely ought to love each other.
No one has ever seen God. But if we love each other, God lives in us, and his love is brought to full expression in us. (1 Jn. 4:10-12)

His glory is not seen by us (no one has ever seen God), but it is "...brought to full expression in us" (through his love) if we love each other.

What did John see in the transfiguration?

 

[Imalive]

What did John see in the transfiguration?

Jesus and Moses and Elijah
Or are you a modalist? lol