Purgatory?

Albion

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So it looks like we are needing to decide if we are talking about Purgatory (the Catholic theory) or some alternate view of the same issue.

These posts seem to have mixed the two at times, which is why readers are unsure of what the topic is supposed to be. It might be that we need the Catholic belief about Purgatory in front of us before either agreeing or disagreeing with it.
 

MoreCoffee

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Protestants just don't have the courage (or maybe wit) to give a meaningful name to the transition from earthly sin-stained living to heavenly sinless living. Catholics use a biblical concept - that of purging away the dross - to name the transition from imperfection to perfection with the word "purgatory". Protestants do in fact believe there is such a transition but seem to spend a lot of time hating on purgatory mainly because it is a Catholic word.
 

Confessional Lutheran

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Protestants just don't have the courage (or maybe wit) to give a meaningful name to the transition from earthly sin-stained living to heavenly sinless living. Catholics use a biblical concept - that of purging away the dross - to name the transition from imperfection to perfection with the word "purgatory". Protestants do in fact believe there is such a transition but seem to spend a lot of time hating on purgatory mainly because it is a Catholic word.

You mean death? We die and are consigned to Heaven or Hell. When our spirits rejoin our bodies on the last day, those bodies will be perfected in the elect.
 

MoreCoffee

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You mean death? We die and are consigned to Heaven or Hell. When our spirits rejoin our bodies on the last day, those bodies will be perfected in the elect.

Exactly, they will be purged of all their dross (sinful inclinations, actual sins not yet repented of et cetera) and whatever else may make a person imperfect and hence unfit for heaven. In short, protestants believe in purgatory but they don't realise it because they are too busy hating the Catholic word for it - namely "purgatory".
 

Andrew

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You mean death? We die and are consigned to Heaven or Hell. When our spirits rejoin our bodies on the last day, those bodies will be perfected in the elect.
It is possible to fully repent be baptised for the remission of sin and sin no more, living perfect Holy lives now too, dont forget that.
 

MoreCoffee

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It is possible to fully repent be baptised for the remission of sin and sin no more, living perfect Holy lives now too, dont forget that.

But do you think that you are doing that or are you saying that in theory it could be done but not by you?
 

Andrew

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But do you think that you are doing that or are you saying that in theory it could be done but not by you?
Very possible indeed even for me, some days I do feel holy, other days I feel somewhat but I really have changed enormously and I could do a lot better, I believe even the holiest still have room for perfection/correction. thank God for grace, I honestly believe my Grandma is completely Holy.
It is are calling, tomorrow is not promised and we need to put on our full armor of God.
I feel I could pray more often, fast, not believe I know everything (big issue ;) ),
I feel I should study scripture the way I used to. Donations etc.. I really really do try to make sure I keep all original Ten commandments and the commandment to Love, this is very very important!
The good thing about pentecostal life is that for the most part It feels like Christmas everyday, and the Spirit takes out the pity of "i cant give THIS up" when trying to be Christian, the Spirit makes you rejoice that you just dont WANT to do it.
As for as being labeled a heretic I will not hesitate for a second to die for my Lord and that is FACT.

Ps, I try not to judge others in faith and I hate that I am a sucker for debate, also I dont go to church on Saturday so I am not sure if I am keeping the Sabbath lol, I believe Jesus is our rest and that he is the sabbath
 
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Confessional Lutheran

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It is possible to fully repent be baptised for the remission of sin and sin no more, living perfect Holy lives now too, dont forget that.

Sorry, but I still struggle with the Old Adam even now, in this life. The Holy Spirit will continue to work on my sanctification, but Original Sin, while forgiven in baptism, is still the chief sin I inherited from Adam. I am conscious of my sin, which although forgiven, is ever before me.
 

Andrew

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Sorry, but I still struggle with the Old Adam even now, in this life. The Holy Spirit will continue to work on my sanctification, but Original Sin, while forgiven in baptism, is still the chief sin I inherited from Adam. I am conscious of my sin, which although forgiven, is ever before me.
With the Holy Spirit indwelling your person you must always repent then and there at the moment of sin and pray to God, when I slip up the spirit knows and you will feel it kicking inside you lol as long as you catch it and let the spirit work in you you should always stay in good cheer. I bounce off the walls at work because I can barely contain the joy
 

MoreCoffee

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Sorry, but I still struggle with the Old Adam even now, in this life. The Holy Spirit will continue to work on my sanctification, but Original Sin, while forgiven in baptism, is still the chief sin I inherited from Adam. I am conscious of my sin, which although forgiven, is ever before me.

Original sin is a sin of "origin" rather than an actual sin that you, as an individual, have committed. It may carry a sort of guilt but not the guilt of actual sin. Perhaps the best way to describe it is that human beings feel shame when God is present because they know that they are impure even if they have not actually sinned. It would be like turning up at a formal dinner only to find you forgot your clothing.
 
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Confessional Lutheran

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Original sin is a sin of "origin" rather than an actual sin that you, as an individual, have committed. It may carry a sort of guilt but not the guilt of actual sin. Perhaps the best way to describe it is that human being feel shame when God is present because they know that they are impure even if they have not actually sinned. It would be like turning up at a formal dinner only to find you forgot your clothing.

I could see that. I recall hearing during sermons that baptism is what we are clothed with when we go to the Wedding Feast. Original Sin is what I consider the root sin that causes all the sins that we actually commit. We inherit this disobedience from our first parents, Adam and Eve. So, in the fullness of time, Jesus came down to give us the Gospel, but we are never without the Law on that account. The Law's chief purpose is to show us our sins and how far we actually fall short, while the Gospel raises us up from despair and gives us hope in Jesus Christ, Who alone serves as our Redeemer and Who kept the Law perfectly, for us.
 
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MoreCoffee

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I could see that. I recall hearing during sermons that baptism is what we are clothed with when we go to the Wedding Feast.

That is a good thought. Perhaps the man who turned up to the feast without a wedding garment had that problem - turning up without baptism.
 

MoreCoffee

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... Original Sin is what I consider the root sin that causes all the sins that we actually commit. We inherit this disobedience from our first parents, Adam and Eve. So, in the fullness of time, Jesus came down to give us the Gospel, but we are never without the Law on that account. The Law's chief purpose is to show us our sins and how far we actually fall short, while the Gospel raises us up from despair and gives us hope in Jesus Christ, Who alone serves as our Redeemer and Who kept the Law perfectly, for us.

I am inclined to think that Jesus kept the Law and he did that for our benefit but I hesitate at the thought that Jesus keeps the law for us if that phrase is intended to mean that we need not keep any law because Jesus is doing the keeping in our place without regard to how we live.
 

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Original sin is a sin of "origin" rather than an actual sin that you, as an individual, have committed. It may carry a sort of guilt but not the guilt of actual sin. Perhaps the best way to describe it is that human being feel shame when God is present because they know that they are impure even if they have not actually sinned. It would be like turning up at a formal dinner only to find you forgot your clothing.

If you confess your sin He forgives and cleanses you from all unrighteousness, even your conscience. The evil inclination is nailed to the cross.
I used to have that. Always feel guilty and like any moment expecting I'd do the same sin again and feeling like a sinner. Then I was like: hey! It's done away! His blood purges us and presents us blameless.
I was once sick and I had Word of faith teaching: keep confessing til you see it. I confessed those Bible texts for a year and then my body was really healed. Believe that you have received it and it will happen. And then Gideons said that. I was like: yay! That's the same principle.
I am made holy. I died w Christ. The sin nature died on the cross. And then learn to walk in it. Paul hadn't gotten hold of it yet, but he also said he died w Christ. The righteous shall live by faith.
 

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I am inclined to think that Jesus kept the Law and he did that for our benefit but I hesitate at the thought that Jesus keeps the law for us if that phrase is intended to mean that we need not keep any law because Jesus is doing the keeping in our place without regard to how we live.

That isn't what I mean at all, MC. Of course we walk in the Law, in it's Third Use, we have the law as our standard by which we live God- pleasing lives.
 

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The blood of Jesus and of course His Word cleanses us. How could I forget? Thats what the preaching was about last sunday. Abide in Him.
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony and they didnt love their lives unto death.
 

MoreCoffee

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That isn't what I mean at all, MC. Of course we walk in the Law, in it's Third Use, we have the law as our standard by which we live God- pleasing lives.

Catholics teach that to keep the commandments is to correspond to the wisdom and the will of God as expressed in his work of creation.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church observes

At the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus issued a solemn warning in which he presented God's law, given on Sinai during the first covenant, in light of the grace of the New Covenant:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets: I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law, until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfil the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments". He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly. On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts. This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." This principle of integral observance of the Law not only in letter but in spirit was dear to the Pharisees. By giving Israel this principle they had led many Jews of Jesus' time to an extreme religious zeal. This zeal, were it not to lapse into "hypocritical" casuistry, could only prepare the People for the unprecedented intervention of God through the perfect fulfilment of the Law by the only Righteous One in place of all sinners.

The perfect fulfilment of the Law could be the work of none but the divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son. In Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but "upon the heart" of the Servant who becomes "a covenant to the people", because he will "faithfully bring forth justice". Jesus fulfils the Law to the point of taking upon himself "the curse of the Law" incurred by those who do not "abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them", for his death took place to redeem them "from the transgressions under the first covenant". The Jewish people and their spiritual leaders viewed Jesus as a rabbi. He often argued within the framework of rabbinical interpretation of the Law. Yet Jesus could not help but offend the teachers of the Law, for he was not content to propose his interpretation alongside theirs but taught the people "as one who had authority, and not as their scribes". In Jesus, the same Word of God that had resounded on Mount Sinai to give the written Law to Moses, made itself heard anew on the Mount of the Beatitudes. Jesus did not abolish the Law but fulfilled it by giving its ultimate interpretation in a divine way: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old. . . But I say to you. . ." With this same divine authority, he disavowed certain human traditions of the Pharisees that were "making void the word of God".

Going even further, Jesus perfects the dietary law, so important in Jewish daily life, by revealing its pedagogical meaning through a divine interpretation: "Whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him. . . (Thus he declared all foods clean.). . . What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts. . ." In presenting with divine authority the definitive interpretation of the Law, Jesus found himself confronted by certain teachers of the Law who did not accept his interpretation of the Law, guaranteed though it was by the divine signs that accompanied it. This was the case especially with the sabbath laws, for he recalls, often with rabbinical arguments, that the sabbath rest is not violated by serving God and neighbour, which his own healings did.​

In short - Jesus did not abolish the Law of Sinai, but rather fulfilled it (cf. Mt 5:17-19) with such perfection (cf. Jn 8:46) that he revealed its ultimate meaning (cf.: Mt 5:33) and redeemed the transgressions against it (cf. Heb 9:15).
 

MoreCoffee

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The blood of Jesus and of course His Word cleanses us. How could I forget? Thats what the preaching was about last sunday. Abide in Him.
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their testimony and they didnt love their lives unto death.

But you are not completely clean, like Peter your feet still need a washing.
 

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I apologize im not trying to complicate things by using a catholic term, I guess im simply saying that we should be purged of all sin by faith in Christ and by the grace allotted by God in this life.
God's grace through the atoning work of Jesus removes the guilt of sin. There is no need to flagellate oneself.
You cannot conjure up enough of your own faith to save yourself. You can never purge the deep stain of your sin. Only Jesus, by his act of grace can cleanse you. It's all God's work and nothing you can or could possibly do. You and I are so utterly rotten that no hope of restoration exists outside of God's grace and God's grace alone.
 

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Protestants just don't have the courage (or maybe wit) to give a meaningful name to the transition from earthly sin-stained living to heavenly sinless living. Catholics use a biblical concept - that of purging away the dross - to name the transition from imperfection to perfection with the word "purgatory". Protestants do in fact believe there is such a transition but seem to spend a lot of time hating on purgatory mainly because it is a Catholic word.
Silly person, God calls it sanctification. It's found in scripture, which is why you likely don't know the term.
 
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