Blood Curse?

[Andrew]

Our church had a guest speaker for revival last week. He was going into priesthood for the Catholic church but switched to Pentecostal because of "contradictions and dogma"... I personally believe that every denomination has its dogmas... anyway that's besides the point.
Although I often disagree to some degree with most pastures for better or worse, this man said something that hit a nerve, maybe its the way he said it but I just want to see if anyone has ever thought of it...
He was talking about how Pilot was pagan and had no interest in the jewish religion and saw no fault or reason to crucify Jesus.
When asked who shall be responsible for the death of this man ...(crying) "*my how they made a grave mistake... oh the murder of the 6 million jews at holocaust"... The people answered "His blood be on us, and on our children"

Was the holocaust an account or drawback of a blood curse on the Jews for what their ancestors said and did?

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[MennoSota]

Our church had a guest speaker for revival last week. He was going into priesthood for the Catholic church but switched to Pentecostal because of "contradictions and dogma"... I personally believe that every denomination has its dogmas... anyway that's besides the point.
Although I often disagree to some degree with most pastures for better or worse, this man said something that hit a nerve, maybe its the way he said it but I just want to see if anyone has ever thought of it...
He was talking about how Pilot was pagan and had no interest in the jewish religion and saw no fault or reason to crucify Jesus.
When asked who shall be responsible for the death of this man ...(crying) "*my how they made a grave mistake... oh the murder of the 6 million jews at holocaust"... The people answered "His blood be on us, and on our children"

Was the holocaust an account or drawback of a blood curse on the Jews for what their ancestors said and did?

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No.

God is Sovereign and humans are rebels (think ISIS rebels) toward God. God is under no obligation to protect anyone from rebels killing rebels. God, in his sovereignty, even ordains that his servants, his ambassadors to his Kingdom, will suffer at these rebel hands as we preach reconciliation. Jews, disabled people, Christians and others whom the Nazi's despised were killed, not because God placed a curse on them, but because rebellious sinners killed other rebellious sinners and God said, "Okay." God is not obligated to protect anyone. If he does, it is solely because he decides to display grace when it isn't even deserved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

Was the holocaust an account or drawback of a blood curse on the Jews for what their ancestors said and did?

Who can say with complete confidence why the Nazi murder of millions of European Jews happened but it did. If God is a mean spirited grudge keeper then maybe the words "His blood be on us, and on our children" were God's motive for arranging to have Nazis kill Jews but then why did twenty million USSR people die and millions of army and civilian people from Europe and the Americas die too? Was there a blood curse on them too? However if God is good and love is his name and nature then the words "His blood be on us, and on our children" were not why so many Jews died under the Nazi tyranny.

 

[Andrew]

Thats what was weird about the sermon, I didnt know what to make out of it. God is not out for blood or revenge especially through hitler who claimed to be the second coming (German Jesus). Didnt Paul hear Jesus say "why are tho persecuting me?" when he was persecuting jews and Christians?
Sometimes I wish I could just interrupt the sermons when they are injecting such bitter gloom into the ears of listeners.
He began preaching fire and brimstone against the Catholic church, the dogma in the church is nothing new but my relatives are catholics, i would like to consider them children of God.
He says that they dont truly repent and that they are trying to get into heaven another way which makes them "thieves".
Oh he says that we all must speak in tongues and that the church made up the trinity in the 3rd or 4th century (ill accept the latter) but this guy really put me off. He had some good points but because of his personal grudge with the church he is still off by a long shot.
If you dont like the rites of the papacy or whatever thats fine but dont condemn the Christ body with new dogmas and personal views.
He even started boring us by reading the creeds of Catholicism, the trinity one is so confusing but please you dont have to bring those doctrines into a church of worship just to prove something one way or another.
Long story short, didnt care to much for him


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[tango]

Thats what was weird about the sermon, I didnt know what to make out of it. God is not out for blood or revenge especially through hitler who claimed to be the second coming (German Jesus). Didnt Paul hear Jesus say "why are tho persecuting me?" when he was persecuting jews and Christians?
Sometimes I wish I could just interrupt the sermons when they are injecting such bitter gloom into the ears of listeners.
He began preaching fire and brimstone against the Catholic church, the dogma in the church is nothing new but my relatives are catholics, i would like to consider them children of God.
He says that they dont truly repent and that they are trying to get into heaven another way which makes them "thieves".
Oh he says that we all must speak in tongues and that the church made up the trinity in the 3rd or 4th century (ill accept the latter) but this guy really put me off. He had some good points but because of his personal grudge with the church he is still off by a long shot.
If you dont like the rites of the papacy or whatever thats fine but dont condemn the Christ body with new dogmas and personal views.
He even started boring us by reading the creeds of Catholicism, the trinity one is so confusing but please you dont have to bring those doctrines into a church of worship just to prove something one way or another.
Long story short, didnt care to much for him


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He sounds like a nutjob from what you've described.

I don't see a problem with Pilate being little more than a Roman judge who had to be involved in cases where the death penalty was sought, and who looked at the evidence and found nothing to convict Jesus at all let alone sentence him to death. But since the Jews insisted and Jesus was a Jew he pretty much let them have what they wanted.

Saul heard the "why are you persecuting me?" voice but that doesn't mean every single person who persecutes Christians will have a conversion similar to Saul. It's a huge mistake to see God do something once and assume God will always do the exact same thing.

Personally if I hear someone say that we must all speak in tongues I struggle to take them seriously. I have no problem with the idea that the gift of tongues is present today but reject the notion that we must all speak in tongues, not least because it doesn't sit at all well with the tail end of 1Co 12.

 

[Andrew]

He sounds like a nutjob from what you've described.

I don't see a problem with Pilate being little more than a Roman judge who had to be involved in cases where the death penalty was sought, and who looked at the evidence and found nothing to convict Jesus at all let alone sentence him to death. But since the Jews insisted and Jesus was a Jew he pretty much let them have what they wanted.

Saul heard the "why are you persecuting me?" voice but that doesn't mean every single person who persecutes Christians will have a conversion similar to Saul. It's a huge mistake to see God do something once and assume God will always do the exact same thing.

Personally if I hear someone say that we must all speak in tongues I struggle to take them seriously. I have no problem with the idea that the gift of tongues is present today but reject the notion that we must all speak in tongues, not least because it doesn't sit at all well with the tail end of 1Co 12.

Yup. That kind of claim is really not necessary and since he hates contradictions i wanted to point that out to him but when church ended he was gone for he is some celebrity i guess, he was selling his books there i never caught his name.

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[MoreCoffee]

Thats what was weird about the sermon, I didnt know what to make out of it. God is not out for blood or revenge especially through hitler who claimed to be the second coming (German Jesus). Didnt Paul hear Jesus say "why are tho persecuting me?" when he was persecuting jews and Christians?
Sometimes I wish I could just interrupt the sermons when they are injecting such bitter gloom into the ears of listeners.
He began preaching fire and brimstone against the Catholic church, the dogma in the church is nothing new but my relatives are catholics, i would like to consider them children of God.
He says that they dont truly repent and that they are trying to get into heaven another way which makes them "thieves".
Oh he says that we all must speak in tongues and that the church made up the trinity in the 3rd or 4th century (ill accept the latter) but this guy really put me off. He had some good points but because of his personal grudge with the church he is still off by a long shot.
If you dont like the rites of the papacy or whatever thats fine but dont condemn the Christ body with new dogmas and personal views.
He even started boring us by reading the creeds of Catholicism, the trinity one is so confusing but please you dont have to bring those doctrines into a church of worship just to prove something one way or another.
Long story short, didnt care to much for him


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If it were me sitting in that meeting with him preaching like that I'd walk out. I'd do it quietly but I would not stay to listen to that sort of thing.

 

[Andrew]

My friend is giving me a cd of the whole revival, i can upload it for you lol.
I was cringing the whole time, fidgeting around the pew and ended up just looking down at my feet ignoring him

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[MoreCoffee]

My friend is giving me a cd of the whole revival, i can upload it for you lol.
I was cringing the whole time, fidgeting around the pew and ended up just looking down at my feet ignoring him

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I'd walk out on the recording for the same reasons that I'd walk out on his sermon when it was delivered. His teaching is wicked and heresy so even if he is completely sincere about it he is still preaching error and I do not want to support it.

 

[faramir.pete]

Just my six penneth here, but curses whether sealed with blood or not do not have anything to do with God, in fact the opposite is true, curses usually invoke evil spirits into a situation or life.

In the case you quote in the OP it is very reasonable to extrapolate that the Holocaust and much of the persecution of the Jewish people was linked to the 'blood curse' of the Jewish Elders at the Crucifixion.

This definitely a case of needing to be careful what you wish for, there are powers at work in our world that few of us understand or even recognise and a lot of them have evil intent for anyone who professes faith in our God.


Pete from Peterborough UK

 

[Imalive]

Our church had a guest speaker for revival last week. He was going into priesthood for the Catholic church but switched to Pentecostal because of "contradictions and dogma"... I personally believe that every denomination has its dogmas... anyway that's besides the point.
Although I often disagree to some degree with most pastures for better or worse, this man said something that hit a nerve, maybe its the way he said it but I just want to see if anyone has ever thought of it...
He was talking about how Pilot was pagan and had no interest in the jewish religion and saw no fault or reason to crucify Jesus.
When asked who shall be responsible for the death of this man ...(crying) "*my how they made a grave mistake... oh the murder of the 6 million jews at holocaust"... The people answered "His blood be on us, and on our children"

Was the holocaust an account or drawback of a blood curse on the Jews for what their ancestors said and did?

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Did he say that?
We had one preacher in Holland some 30 years ago who preached that in his church. Don't think they threw him in jail, but it was all over the newspapers.
It were just a few Jews. Their children? Hope not. It was a curse yes and if they said sorry when He was raised then I think they broke that curse. A lot got saved, even the priests, but also Jerusalem got destroyed. Maybe they too and their kids, maybe not.
Now the devil just wants to kill the Jews, Hitler was friends w the Mufta, cause God has a plan for them.
He always tried to kill the Jews, Moses, Jesus as a baby and christians are being persecuted.
I will put enmity between your seed and her seed.
That the Jews were scattered all over the world was because they didn't all accept Jesus, but now He brings them back and there are movies on youtube where you see God miraculously protecting them in wars.

 

[NewCreation435]

The holocaust had nothing to do with it. The statement they made to Paul was simply their taking responsbility for Jesus being sentenced. They were so filled with rage against him that even when he raised Lazarus from the grave it didn't persuade them. Rather they want to kill Jesus and also kill Lazarus. I thnk it is a statement about how blind we can become in our natural state without God.

 

[Albion]

I tend to think that the speaker's theory is incorrect. Yes, Pilate was a Roman pagan and theoretically 'passed the buck' to the Jewish leaders present who called for Jesus' execution, but as for such later developments such as the Holocaust...the Jews were already, in Pilate's time, a despised race. The idea that there was some resultant curse because of Jesus' execution is highly doubtful, therefore. And the responsibility actually falls on the Romans, not the Jews, since the latter called for the crucifixion but were not in the position to order it themselves.

 

[Imalive]

They've said that a lot, that the Jews got the curse from God for leaving Him. It is in Deuteronomy I think, but it's kinda weird if 'christians' persecuted and murdered em and then say it was Gods curse.
And He helped em at the same time using real christians.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinio.../43161-a-deadly-anti-israel-theological-error

 

[psalms 91]

Pure and simple satan has been out to destroy Gods peopel from the beginning and it hasnt changed

 

[tango]

My friend is giving me a cd of the whole revival, i can upload it for you lol.
I was cringing the whole time, fidgeting around the pew and ended up just looking down at my feet ignoring him

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How does it count as a revival if the preaching isn't even theologically sound?

 

[Andrew]

How does it count as a revival if the preaching isn't even theologically sound?

I dont know, he had a loooong testimonial but he did make some good arguments at times. His says how the Catholic church kept complicating Gods true message, that through grace and belief in Jesus resurrection once one receives the Holy Spirit they are repented and become sons of God not of man. That true faith is rejoicing in God and stretching out arms in praise as true believers instead of complicating the message with man made rituals creeds and dogma and so on.
He had people stand on one side of the alter to represent Sons of God who are naturally rejoicing and praising thanks to God, and the other side representing Sons of Man huddled together trying to figure out the trinity. How the church would ban the Bible and persecute those and excommunicate those who had it, how they burned up and murdered non Trinitarians and Holy men for giving the book back to the people.
I actually agreed with that part but then he started talking about hell thats always a buzzkill. Just because rebellious "leaders" of the church did evil deeds it should not reflect on the people ever. Let God handle them but dont believe for a second that YOU know peoples place of judgment.
Half of it was alright because Im always down with the study of christianity history but when someone asserts bias towards a peoples I lose interest. The other half was a reflection of his personal struggles with the church.

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[Albion]

I dont know, he had a loooong testimonial but he did make some good arguments at times. His says how the Catholic church kept complicating Gods true message, that through grace and belief in Jesus resurrection once one receives the Holy Spirit they are repented and become sons of God not of man. That true faith is rejoicing in God and stretching out arms in praise as true believers instead of complicating the message with man made rituals creeds and dogma and so on.
He had people stand on one side of the alter to represent Sons of God who are naturally rejoicing and praising thanks to God, and the other side representing Sons of Man huddled together trying to figure out the trinity. How the church would ban the Bible and persecute those and excommunicate those who had it, how they burned up and murdered non Trinitarians and Holy men for giving the book back to the people.
I actually agreed with that part but then he started talking about hell thats always a buzzkill.

Just out of curiousity...is this a congregation of the United Pentecostal Church that you're describing?

 

[Andrew]

Just out of curiousity...is this a congregation of the United Pentecostal Church that you're describing?

I dunno I have never heard that before.
The church is great im not trying to give it a bad image im just talking about the guest. He has written two books and goes around Pentecostal churches pretty much talk about the Catholic church :/

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[Albion]

I dunno I have never heard that before.
The church is great im not trying to give it a bad image im just talking about the guest. He has written two books and goes around Pentecostal churches pretty much talk about the Catholic church :/

I understand and do not want to butt in just to criticize unnecessarily. However, the main (and just about only) Pentecostal church that is anti-Trinitarian is the UPC which is widely considered to be a cult. So for the congregation to feature a speaker who taught that it was non-Trinitarians who were the good people and were the ones who were persecuted unjustly made me wonder.