work out your own salvation Php 2:12

[MennoSota]

Did Adam lose his salvation or did he simply sin?

He broke the covenant. It separated him from fellowship with God. God established sacrifice to cloth Adam and Eve so they might be covered. Sacrifice and faith kept the saints of old until God came in the flesh to restore the covenant with mankind.
I believe our church words often cause us to struggle with what it means to be in covenant with God. We also don't understand covenants.

 

[NewCreation435]

He broke the covenant. It separated him from fellowship with God. God established sacrifice to cloth Adam and Eve so they might be covered. Sacrifice and faith kept the saints of old until God came in the flesh to restore the covenant with mankind.
I believe our church words often cause us to struggle with what it means to be in covenant with God. We also don't understand covenants.

I would agree with you that the idea of covenant is foreign to most people these days. At least in the U.S. it is. I'm not sure about other countries

 

[Lamb]

Speaking of the covenant relationship, I just made a post in another thread about the ancient Hebrew marriage to show comparison to the Christian church bride and bridegroom. The father of the groom went out searching for the bride and the 2 fathers agreed to the covenant. The contract would already have been made if any act of consent by the daughter was given and was only a formality since the contract (between the fathers) was legal and binding. If the daughter broke the contract it usually meant death.

 

[Pedrito]

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I don’t normally watch video links or listen to audio versions.

I find them demoralising.

The ones I have watched and listened to have been universally biased or inconclusive, and often inconsistent.

Unfortunately, I found the link provided by MennoSota to be no different.

In that presentation I picked up on a few things that could well bear mention:
- The example was rather impractical (even if emotionally appealing) – if the daughter dresses well the star will greet her personally;
- There is a “conscious promise” - if we act a certain way, we will be rewarded a certain way; (are there levels of reward in Heaven?);
- The “fear and trembling” is assiduously ignored – why? - does it not fit in with the Presenter’s theology?
- Yet he speaks of salvation hanging in the balance.

All in all, (and it may simply boil down to my being a little thick, but I don’t think so), the video didn’t provide me with a definitive understanding of just what “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” actually means.

But I did find the departure from my normal response to offered videos, both instructive and confirmatory, to say the least.

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[atpollard]

It seems you disagree that scripture says man can fall from faith even though the verse I supplied warns against it?

[1Co 10:1-13 NIV] 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry." 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did--and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did--and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did--and were killed by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

[Jas 2:14, 17, 26 NIV] 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? ... 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. ... 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

[Mat 7:20-23 NIV] 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[MennoSota]

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I don’t normally watch video links or listen to audio versions.

I find them demoralising.

The ones I have watched and listened to have been universally biased or inconclusive, and often inconsistent.

Unfortunately, I found the link provided by MennoSota to be no different.

In that presentation I picked up on a few things that could well bear mention:
- The example was rather impractical (even if emotionally appealing) – if the daughter dresses well the star will greet her personally;
- There is a “conscious promise” - if we act a certain way, we will be rewarded a certain way; (are there levels of reward in Heaven?);
- The “fear and trembling” is assiduously ignored – why? - does it not fit in with the Presenter’s theology?
- Yet he speaks of salvation hanging in the balance.

All in all, (and it may simply boil down to my being a little thick, but I don’t think so), the video didn’t provide me with a definitive understanding of just what “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” actually means.

But I did find the departure from my normal response to offered videos, both instructive and confirmatory, to say the least.

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Do you often hold yourself in such high esteem?

 

[Pedrito]

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MennoSota (Post #66):

Do you often hold yourself in such high esteem?

What an interesting question.

Was it asked because I have found the vast majority of video links over the years to be strongly biased and therefore unhelpful and demoralising, etc.?

Was it asked because I detected and presented some deficiencies in that particular video?

Or was it asked simply as an attempt by the Poster to avoid addressing the particular issues that the video raised?

Whatever the case, I now formally request clarification on (from the person that pointed us to that video and described it as a “phenomenal exegesis”), some issues that popped out of that video.

Describing the video as a “phenomenal exegesis” implies that the Poster both agrees with the statements that have been made, and understands their full meanings and their implications.

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To refresh people’s memories, the issues that I now formally request explanations of (answers to) are:
- What is the “conscious promise” – a promise that if we act a certain way, we will be rewarded a certain way?
---- Does it mean that there levels of reward in Heaven?
---- If not, precisely what does it mean with respect to working out our own salvation with fear and trembling?
- The presenter in the video speaks of salvation hanging in the balance – what does that mean?
- The presenter skirted around the “with fear and trembling” phrase:
---- Is that important, inspired “with fear and trembling” phrase addressed in a later video in the series?
---- Or is it simply ignored altogether?

I think those questions are quite in order under the circumstances. Would anyone care to offer any logical disagreement?

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