work out your own salvation Php 2:12

[NewCreation435]

I find it strange that you feel the rest of the scripture can apply to us though...like you're being selective.

So for example, let's say you go hear Donald Trump speak at a rally. He gives a speech, but for one minute of the speech he addresses someone else in the crowd and says "you" and looks directly at the person. They you wouldn't conclude that the whole speech was directed to the one person, but only the part where he mentioned the person in particular

 

[Lamb]

So for example, let's say you go hear Donald Trump speak at a rally. He gives a speech, but for one minute of the speech he addresses someone else in the crowd and says "you" and looks directly at the person. They you wouldn't conclude that the whole speech was directed to the one person, but only the part where he mentioned the person in particular

It's odd how that one verse goes against your beliefs though.

But there are many more verses to back up that the will is not free to choose...and it has to do with the verses that state natural man is an enemy of God until God turns Him to Himself. The Gospel is foolishness to man until faith is given by God to believe.

 

[NewCreation435]

It's odd how that one verse goes against your beliefs though.

But there are many more verses to back up that the will is not free to choose...and it has to do with the verses that state natural man is an enemy of God until God turns Him to Himself. The Gospel is foolishness to man until faith is given by God to believe.

And I have affirmed both God's Sovereignty and free will. I have not claimed that God does not lead a person to himself. What I specifically asked you is how you reconcile the Bible affirming both and basically your telling me that we don't have a free will and that we are merely puppets on a string without any mind of our own. The Bible affirms that God calls men to repentance and that when they believe he grants them salvation. It is equally clear that some reject him and that this cause grief to the heart of God. If it were solely up to God then why doesn't he save everyone. Why does he allow some hearts to remain cold such as the Pharisees?

 

[Lamb]

And I have affirmed both God's Sovereignty and free will. I have not claimed that God does not lead a person to himself. What I specifically asked you is how you reconcile the Bible affirming both and basically your telling me that we don't have a free will and that we are merely puppets on a string without any mind of our own. The Bible affirms that God calls men to repentance and that when they believe he grants them salvation. It is equally clear that some reject him and that this cause grief to the heart of God. If it were solely up to God then why doesn't he save everyone. Why does he allow some hearts to remain cold such as the Pharisees?

Where did you hear "puppets" from? It sounds like something you heard from one of your pastors? I don't believe we're "puppets" and have never expressed that here on CH so why would you state it?

God gives us faith to believe. The unsaved cannot save himself. He cannot choose to make himself holy. He wants nothing to do with God. The will, when speaking of salvation, is not free...it is bound to sin. The only ones who had true free will were Adam, Eve and Jesus.

The bible does not answer your question as to why God allows some hearts to remain cold. Free will is not the answer though because it is not biblical.

 

[MennoSota]

Where did you hear "puppets" from? It sounds like something you heard from one of your pastors? I don't believe we're "puppets" and have never expressed that here on CH so why would you state it?

God gives us faith to believe. The unsaved cannot save himself. He cannot choose to make himself holy. He wants nothing to do with God. The will, when speaking of salvation, is not free...it is bound to sin. The only ones who had true free will were Adam, Eve and Jesus.

The bible does not answer your question as to why God allows some hearts to remain cold. Free will is not the answer though because it is not biblical.

Lamm, I agree with you. However, you then turn around and declare that Christians can...by their free will...reject the faith that God has given them and thus fall away into damnation.
You have also created your own tension that is not there in scripture. You reject free will, yet you claim it as well. Odd.

 

[Lamb]

Lamm, I agree with you. However, you then turn around and declare that Christians can...by their free will...reject the faith that God has given them and thus fall away into damnation.
You have also created your own tension that is not there in scripture. You reject free will, yet you claim it as well. Odd.

The will is bound to sin. That is not free will. You keep confusing that matter. Scriptures state that man can turn from God. You deny that.

 

[MennoSota]

The will is bound to sin. That is not free will. You keep confusing that matter. Scriptures state that man can turn from God. You deny that.

But, you said they had been given the gift of faith. Does God play "take backs" with humans?

 

[NewCreation435]

Where did you hear "puppets" from? It sounds like something you heard from one of your pastors? I don't believe we're "puppets" and have never expressed that here on CH so why would you state it?

God gives us faith to believe. The unsaved cannot save himself. He cannot choose to make himself holy. He wants nothing to do with God. The will, when speaking of salvation, is not free...it is bound to sin. The only ones who had true free will were Adam, Eve and Jesus.

The bible does not answer your question as to why God allows some hearts to remain cold. Free will is not the answer though because it is not biblical.

No, I haven't heard it from one of my pastors. It is a way of expressing that the puppet has no choice of his or her own and is manipulated by another.
I'm having the same problem that Mennosota mentions on this thread with what you have said. You are saying that free will doesn't play a part in salvation, yet your claiming that man can lose it. If he can lose it then that directly implies free will. If it was not something that man did then he couldn't lose it

 

[Andrew]

Like that verse you posted in Luke Lamm, those who do not build their faith on the rock will fall into temptation because they never had solid faith to begin with. Hebrews states that it is impossible to taste the goof fruit and then to reject it.
If we are struggling with doubt we are simply struggling with ourselves but to know that you love God should reflect that HE also loves you and in fact has loved YOU first... This thought would never come into the mind of an anti-christ, those who reject God, these the enemies of God and because we are called to love our enemies we should continue to speak the gospel to them and reach out, giving them some verses may draw them in later down the road... I have seen some amazing conversions on youtube, that kid from that 90s sitcome (can't remember) was speaking the gospel to gang members and one of them kept wanting to get in his face and taunt him... anyway a year or two later he saw that guy again (the one that was taunting him) and he had the bible in his hands, he was dressed nice and looked transformed and he was on his own preaching to people on the streets just like that kid did to him, I actually got very emotional when I saw this video. Im going to see if I can find it...

 

[Andrew]

Second video you see the transformation
https://youtu.be/cVco8t-R8KU
https://youtu.be/OuDFWFKalsU

 

[Lamb]

No, I haven't heard it from one of my pastors. It is a way of expressing that the puppet has no choice of his or her own and is manipulated by another.
I'm having the same problem that Mennosota mentions on this thread with what you have said. You are saying that free will doesn't play a part in salvation, yet your claiming that man can lose it. If he can lose it then that directly implies free will. If it was not something that man did then he couldn't lose it

When I say the will is bound to sin, what does that mean to you? That is the way that man remains by rejecting the Savior or not having faith. He remains bound to sin since he has no faith to believe in the freedom the cross provides. That's not a will that has been freed. Does that clear it up to you that I'm not saying free will...because the bible does not express that at unbelievers our will is free.

 

[Lamb]

But, you said they had been given the gift of faith. Does God play "take backs" with humans?

No, God does not take back. Scripture warns us we can fall from faith and that is our own doing (1 Corinthians 10:12 is one such verse and there are more).

 

[MennoSota]

No, God does not take back. Scripture warns us we can fall from faith and that is our own doing (1 Corinthians 10:12 is one such verse and there are more).

So... grace saves us. Our own will cancels out grace and condemns us?
That seems terribly inconsistent.

 

[Lamb]

So... grace saves us. Our own will cancels out grace and condemns us?
That seems terribly inconsistent.

It seems you disagree that scripture says man can fall from faith even though the verse I supplied warns against it?

 

[NewCreation435]

When I say the will is bound to sin, what does that mean to you? That is the way that man remains by rejecting the Savior or not having faith. He remains bound to sin since he has no faith to believe in the freedom the cross provides. That's not a will that has been freed. Does that clear it up to you that I'm not saying free will...because the bible does not express that at unbelievers our will is free.

When I hear you say that the will is bound in sin that speak to me about depravity. It makes me think of the verses in the Bible that say that the flesh cannot please God. The flesh doesn't want to nor can it. So, our salvation cannot be based on personal merit. Yet, by saying that man can lose his or her salvation seems to indicate that salvation is at least in part something that man can control and lose. I use to believe that way, but then I realized that the same God who had the power to save me has the power to keep me in his hand like it says in Romans 8. So, therefore I no longer need to fear that God will reject me. Not based on merit of my own, but because of what He has done. It has never been nor will it ever be about my will or able to stay saved.

 

[NewCreation435]

Having started this thread with quote from Php 2:12 I am going to share some of my thoughts about it
12 "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;"
You see this verse is directed to the "beloved" in Philippi. People who had been in Paul's presence and now were absent from him. He is calling them just as he does in many other places to live out their faith in a way that honors Christ. The Christians in Paul's day just as in ours were on exhibit. People were watching them to see what type of witness they had. Paul is teling them that since Christ did so much for them we should then remember the high cost that Jesus paid and to make the most of our witness and time on earth as disciples of His. The reference to "fear and trembling" to me indicates that we are to be careful. That though our salvation may be by grace, it doesn't mean that it is free. It cost Jesus going to the cross, suffering and dying for us. We shouldn't treat that lightly

 

[Lamb]

When I hear you say that the will is bound in sin that speak to me about depravity. It makes me think of the verses in the Bible that say that the flesh cannot please God. The flesh doesn't want to nor can it. So, our salvation cannot be based on personal merit. Yet, by saying that man can lose his or her salvation seems to indicate that salvation is at least in part something that man can control and lose. I use to believe that way, but then I realized that the same God who had the power to save me has the power to keep me in his hand like it says in Romans 8. So, therefore I no longer need to fear that God will reject me. Not based on merit of my own, but because of what He has done. It has never been nor will it ever be about my will or able to stay saved.

God let Adam fall, didn't He?

 

[MennoSota]

It seems you disagree that scripture says man can fall from faith even though the verse I supplied warns against it?

I disagree with your interpretation of that passage. I do not believe scripture says that God's adopted children can do something so egragious that God unadopts them.

 

[NewCreation435]

God let Adam fall, didn't He?

Did Adam lose his salvation or did he simply sin?

 

[Lamb]

Did Adam lose his salvation or did he simply sin?

There was a consequence to Adam's action, wasn't there? God then gave a promise to save Him and the promise was through a Savior.