Why is public nudity condemned by Christians but not by the Bible Christians follow?

[rcouple]

My husband and I have been in the discussion above many times however, we have not gotten a reasonable answer.
We have been very active in the nudist community for over 25 years and have even raised our son and daughter in the lifestyle as well.
We are willing to have an open, honest and respectful discussion here in the thread and you can respond with your comments or discussion points.
We understand that some may consider this a fake post, so we have posted our real picture.
Hope to hear your thoughts on this

[Image deleted by staff for the integrity of the site]

 

[Messy]

How do you mean not by the Bible? I think it's even condemned by the Bible how I walk around, without a cap on my head.


1 Timothy 2:9-10 NIV;NKJV - I also want the women to dress

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety

1 Corinthians 11

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.

Why I taught my kids to not walk around naked is perverts and pedo's. I don't even put a pic from them in swimming pants on Facebook, because there are pedo's who steal pics and pedo's in Holland get half a year jail after some years of rape, so you better protects your kids when they let em walk around. And when you're older it's also not smart. In the O.T. women had to dress up, hide their face, don't talk to a man alone. That was just protection against rape. I biked in the woods as an 18 y o cause I was dumb and met this old guy who wanted to have sex and didnt keep his hands with him, but he didnt dare anymore when I said God is here and he said he went to a sauna when I tried to convert him. So such ppl go to such places and a lot of normal ppl, but also ppl who just come there to lust after ppl. I had a muslim collegue. I'm from Holland. Sauna is normal here. They wanted to go with a group of women, collegues. No thank you very much. But the muslim girl went with them. First and only time in her life in such a place. She said a creep sat next to her, touching her.

 

[tango]

My husband and I have been in the discussion above many times however, we have not gotten a reasonable answer.
We have been very active in the nudist community for over 25 years and have even raised our son and daughter in the lifestyle as well.
We are willing to have an open, honest and respectful discussion here in the thread and you can respond with your comments or discussion points.
We understand that some may consider this a fake post, so we have posted our real picture.
Hope to hear your thoughts on thisView attachment 1953

Part of the issue is in the question - "why do Christians..." as if "Christians" refers to a group who all think the same thing.

Take another issue - homosexuality. Within the umbrella of people who call themselves Christians you'll find some who believe that even having desires towards the same sex earns you an eternity in hell with no possibility of redemption, some who believe there's nothing wrong with homosexual activity, and everything in between.

As far as a nudist lifestyle is concerned, from what I've seen of it (which is limited, admittedly) it's about nakedness being a great equaliser and isn't sexual at all. I've walked across beaches shared with nudists (I'm not a nudist myself, but a path I was walking crossed a beach open to nudists). There were a few naked people around, some obviously making a point to strut because they were naked but most of them were just doing what anyone else would do on a beach but without any clothes on. Then there were a couple of guys I saw sitting just outside the "clothing optional" area with binoculars, watching the nudists. I don't know why they didn't just go and sit on the clothing optional section if they just wanted a good look but, you know, whatever.

Personally I don't feel any desire to walk around naked in public but that's just me. I'm not entirely sure why you'd say Christians condemn it as a universal - you can probably find Christians who would condemn any given activity but that doesn't mean all Christians do it. You list yourself as a Christian and presumably you don't condemn it?

 

[rcouple]

How do you mean not by the Bible? I think it's even condemned by the Bible how I walk around, without a cap on my head.


1 Timothy 2:9-10 NIV;NKJV - I also want the women to dress

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety

1 Corinthians 11

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.

Why I taught my kids to not walk around naked is perverts and pedo's. I don't even put a pic from them in swimming pants on Facebook, because there are pedo's who steal pics and pedo's in Holland get half a year jail after some years of rape, so you better protects your kids when they let em walk around. And when you're older it's also not smart. In the O.T. women had to dress up, hide their face, don't talk to a man alone. That was just protection against rape. I biked in the woods as an 18 y o cause I was dumb and met this old guy who wanted to have sex and didnt keep his hands with him, but he didnt dare anymore when I said God is here and he said he went to a sauna when I tried to convert him. So such ppl go to such places and a lot of normal ppl, but also ppl who just come there to lust after ppl. I had a muslim collegue. I'm from Holland. Sauna is normal here. They wanted to go with a group of women, collegues. No thank you very much. But the muslim girl went with them. First and only time in her life in such a place. She said a creep sat next to her, touching her.

Messy, thanks so much for the respectful reply and let me address your comments.

Paul wrote the letter to Timothy because he seen the church in Ephesus heading off in all types of wrong directions. One of the issues was the women of those days would "show off" their wealth by wearing extravagant hairstyles, clothing and jewels. He mentions these items directly as being a distraction to others during worship. There is no mention at all of women being naked or a condemnation of nudity. If he were referring to human nudity, he most likely would have included men as well in the conversation. Taking the verses in context...they are not referring to naked women at all, instead women "showing off" with the clothing and jewels that they wear. women are still "dressing to impress, just look around in your church on Sunday.
1 Corinthians 11 also has nothing to do with (or even mentions) not wearing clothing. It is addressing the Jewish culture at the time when men and women's hair style, length and exposure had more of a meaning than it does for us Christians today. If we want to "hold to" the writings of this verse, then most Christians today are wearing and exposing their hair styles against the teachings of the Bible.
The rest of what you stated has more to do with just common sense and being safe than it does with Biblical teaching.

It might be best for our discussion here to refer to the Bible verses that directly talk about nudity and a person not wearing clothes.

Also, one would think that if public nudity was a sinful act, that it would be directly listed with the other sins that are directly called out.

 

[rcouple]

Part of the issue is in the question - "why do Christians..." as if "Christians" refers to a group who all think the same thing.

Take another issue - homosexuality. Within the umbrella of people who call themselves Christians you'll find some who believe that even having desires towards the same sex earns you an eternity in hell with no possibility of redemption, some who believe there's nothing wrong with homosexual activity, and everything in between.

As far as a nudist lifestyle is concerned, from what I've seen of it (which is limited, admittedly) it's about nakedness being a great equaliser and isn't sexual at all. I've walked across beaches shared with nudists (I'm not a nudist myself, but a path I was walking crossed a beach open to nudists). There were a few naked people around, some obviously making a point to strut because they were naked but most of them were just doing what anyone else would do on a beach but without any clothes on. Then there were a couple of guys I saw sitting just outside the "clothing optional" area with binoculars, watching the nudists. I don't know why they didn't just go and sit on the clothing optional section if they just wanted a good look but, you know, whatever.

Personally I don't feel any desire to walk around naked in public but that's just me. I'm not entirely sure why you'd say Christians condemn it as a universal - you can probably find Christians who would condemn any given activity but that doesn't mean all Christians do it. You list yourself as a Christian and presumably you don't condemn it?

Hi tango and thanks for chiming in. everything you say is what we believe as well. The reason we mention Christians is because we are on a Christians forum. Our believe would be that nudity is as normal as wearing clothes however should not be required by any means. We do believe that clothing should be worn (when needed) to protect the human body which is probably why God made the animal skins clothing for A and E because the fig leaves were not going to hold up under the new environment (out of the garden) that they would now have to life in. If we say that God gave then clothing to cover their naked bodies, then (since it was only the two of them at the time) we would have to also say that it is a sin to be naked in front of our spouse.

Nudist (after the first time) are very comfortable being naked and most of time act the same as clothed people do.

 

[Albion]

Also, one would think that if public nudity was a sinful act, that it would be directly listed with the other sins that are directly called out.

Do you suppose that public nudity by one or both sexes was routine enough in the first century AD in the Asian provinces of the Roman Empire that it needed to be addressed specifically?

We do believe that clothing should be worn (when needed) to protect the human body which is probably why God made the animal skins clothing for A and E because the fig leaves were not going to hold up under the new environment (out of the garden) that they would now have to life in.

Yet, it was Adam and Eve who chose the fig leaves, so the question would be why they chose to clothe themselves following their unsuccessful rebellion against God.

 

[tango]

Hi tango and thanks for chiming in. everything you say is what we believe as well. The reason we mention Christians is because we are on a Christians forum. Our believe would be that nudity is as normal as wearing clothes however should not be required by any means. We do believe that clothing should be worn (when needed) to protect the human body which is probably why God made the animal skins clothing for A and E because the fig leaves were not going to hold up under the new environment (out of the garden) that they would now have to life in. If we say that God gave then clothing to cover their naked bodies, then (since it was only the two of them at the time) we would have to also say that it is a sin to be naked in front of our spouse.

Nudist (after the first time) are very comfortable being naked and most of time act the same as clothed people do.

I guess it's all about location and context.

I don't see any reason why a group of people who mutually agree should be required to wear clothes if they prefer not to. That said I'm not sure I'd be thrilled if a nudist decided not to wear clothes in, say, a shopping mall that didn't specifically invite people to go nude.

Of course it's hard to fully detach nudity from sexuality - however many times people are told (and are maybe even given the chance to see for themselves) that people can be naked without any sexual activity taking place it's hard to see an entire shopping mall full of people accepting that someone walking through the mall or down the street with no clothes on is an entirely non-sexual thing.

 

[Lamb]

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[Messy]

Messy, thanks so much for the respectful reply and let me address your comments.

Paul wrote the letter to Timothy because he seen the church in Ephesus heading off in all types of wrong directions. One of the issues was the women of those days would "show off" their wealth by wearing extravagant hairstyles, clothing and jewels. He mentions these items directly as being a distraction to others during worship. There is no mention at all of women being naked or a condemnation of nudity. If he were referring to human nudity, he most likely would have included men as well in the conversation. Taking the verses in context...they are not referring to naked women at all, instead women "showing off" with the clothing and jewels that they wear. women are still "dressing to impress, just look around in your church on Sunday.
1 Corinthians 11 also has nothing to do with (or even mentions) not wearing clothing. It is addressing the Jewish culture at the time when men and women's hair style, length and exposure had more of a meaning than it does for us Christians today. If we want to "hold to" the writings of this verse, then most Christians today are wearing and exposing their hair styles against the teachings of the Bible.
The rest of what you stated has more to do with just common sense and being safe than it does with Biblical teaching.

It might be best for our discussion here to refer to the Bible verses that directly talk about nudity and a person not wearing clothes.

Also, one would think that if public nudity was a sinful act, that it would be directly listed with the other sins that are directly called out.

It's not a sin. Kids have walked around like that in the 70s and 80s on the beach. I think it has more to do with protection and not offending someone, causing them to sin. I read there were guys in church who couldn't concentrate on the preaching and singing, because women on the podium walked around half naked. If women wore tight or open stuff in our church, they'd be thrown a jacket or a plaid on them, just like in Israel when you visit the wall.

 

[Albion]

It's not a sin. Kids have walked around like that in the 70s and 80s on the beach. I think it has more to do with protection and not offending someone, causing them to sin. I read there were guys in church who couldn't concentrate on the preaching and singing, because women on the podium walked around half naked. If women wore tight or open stuff in our church, they'd be thrown a jacket or a plaid on them, just like in Israel when you visit the wall.

Rcouple's point about the verse in Corinthians (and some others) being about vanity and 'showing off' more than about immodesty is correct, but you are right that Adam and Eve did not clothe themselves in order to parade around in their new duds! Adam and Eve clearly were embarrassed or shamed or feeling guilty, or something in that vein, which is not at all comparable to the behavior of nudists.

And the Bible does indeed condemn, in other verses, women who choose to be seen looking like prostitutes. Who imagines that looking that way does NOT refer to them adopting an overtly sexual appearance?

Proverbs 7: 10; Matthew 5: 27–29.

 

[Messy]

Rcouple's point about the verse in Corinthians (and some others) being about vanity and 'showing off' more than about immodesty is correct, but you are right that Adam and Eve did not clothe themselves in order to parade around in their new duds! Adam and Eve clearly were embarrassed or shamed or feeling guilty, or something in that vein, which is not at all comparable to the behavior of nudists.

And the Bible does indeed condemn, in other verses, women who choose to be seen looking like prostitutes. Who imagines that looking that way does NOT refer to them adopting an overtly sexual appearance?

Sometimes ppl are very naive, especially teens. We had young girls walk around in super tight things in church. They had no idea what was wrong with it.

 

[SetFree]

Walking around naked in public is a sign of shame per God's Word. This does not require debate, for all throughout God's Word the idea of shame is connected with being naked.

It is also linked with the poor who cannot afford proper clothing, and thus God's people have the responsibility to help cloth the poor.

1 Tim 2:9-10
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
KJV

Apostle Paul even mentioned a certain standard Christian women are to abide by in the Church to represent godliness. So women especially attending Church nude is an abomination according per Paul.

I see this thread as nothing but a 'test' against the Christian Church by the devil's servants, for it was pagans of history that went around nude, and marking up their bodies, and having sexual orgies in public.

 

[rcouple]

Do you suppose that public nudity by one or both sexes was routine enough in the first century AD in the Asian provinces of the Roman Empire that it needed to be addressed specifically?


Yet, it was Adam and Eve who chose the fig leaves, so the question would be why they chose to clothe themselves following their unsuccessful rebellion against God.

Hi Albion, To answer your first questions...you might want to do just a little research on the sexual behavior of the Roman Empire in the late BCs and through 300 AD. Sexual activity such as having sex with relatives, anal sex, sex with the same sex and so on was common place, from the rulers on down to the common people. This type of activity WAS addressed and condemned in the Bible. So do you think that people were doing the above sexual activities but not stripping down elsewhere in their society? I think we all can agree that nudity was pretty common back then so we can also see that it wasn't enough to mention as a sin.

Moving forward with this thread...Understand that I (along with my husband) understand that public nudity is not for everyone and should never be required for everyone. However, at the same time us Christians should not "outlaw" it if our Bible does not outlaw it.

As to your 2nd comment, I would agree that it was A and E's idea to cover with fig leaves because (it says) they were ashamed. It never states that God had any shame or was upset in any way because of their nudity. He did make animal skins for them to wear (probably for several reasons) such as protection of their bodies since they were now going to undergo climate conditions that were not like the Garden. I would agree with God that (when needed) humans should wear clothes to protect the body God gave us. Also, could it be that body shaming was one of the first sins that they committed?

 

[Albion]

Hi Albion, To answer your first questions...you might want to do just a little research on the sexual behavior of the Roman Empire in the late BCs and through 300 AD. Sexual activity such as having sex with relatives, anal sex, sex with the same sex and so on was common place, from the rulers on down to the common people.

I'm sure that I could do more research on those topics. However, none of them is what I called to your attention in my earlier post--the one you are replying to here.

I responded to this statement of yours--

Also, one would think that if public nudity was a sinful act, that it would be directly listed with the other sins that are directly called out.

And I pointed out that public nudity was NOT routine in the first century in the Roman world.

That means that your response offered a list of sexual practices but did NOT INCLUDE any mention of the practice you presented for discussion. It's right there in the title you chose for this thread.

I think we all can agree that nudity was pretty common back then so we can also see that it wasn't enough to mention as a sin.

I disagree. But I'm willing to take account of any evidence you think supports your claim.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? If not, there's no reason to conclude that going around naked must have been commonplace in the first century simply because there was "sex with relatives, anal sex, sex with the same sex and so on."

All of those are experienced in our own society, I think you will agree, and yet public nudity is not.

Moving forward with this thread...Understand that I (along with my husband) understand that public nudity is not for everyone and should never be required for everyone.

No, we didn't think you were advocating that public nudity should be required for everyone.

As to your 2nd comment, I would agree that it was A and E's idea to cover with fig leaves because (it says) they were ashamed.

Okay. They were ashamed.

It never states that God had any shame or was upset in any way because of their nudity.

Why would GOD have any shame because of such an act done, not by himself or at his direction, but by two of his creatures acting in defiance of him?

He did make animal skins for them to wear (probably for several reasons) such as protection of their bodies since they were now going to undergo climate conditions that were not like the Garden.

Right, but that's also not part of our discussion topic.

I am sure that nudists today will put on some clothing or a blanket or something else when the temperature falls below freezing, etc. Who would assume anything else?

But that behavior isn't any more relevant to our discussion about public nudity than the existence of various sexual acts or your opposition to the idea of someone requiring people to go naked in public (!).

 

[Josiah]

I'm wondering why anyone would WANT to be nude in public, in front of non-family?


.

 

[Stravinsk]

Also, could it be that body shaming was one of the first sins that they committed?

Genesis is clear that Adam and Eve were given clear instructions on what they may eat (plants, fruits, seeds thereof). They were not given permission to kill/eat other life, such as animals.

Genesis is clear that Adam and Eve were naked, and were not ashamed. Apparently they were not even aware of what nakedness was, or that
it was something that might make them feel ashamed or exposed based on statements made post eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis is clear that the consciousness of being naked, feeling afraid/exposed comes directly after eating of the Tree they were told not to eat from.

In most Christian Theology, God does not actually allow them to eat from all the plant life He provided. There is an exception in their minds - whatever the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil produced - and hence we have the notion of "forbidden fruit". The one exception to God's allowance. One problem with this is that God never called what came from this tree "fruit". He simply says "you shall not eat of it".

What tempts Eve? A snake. Snakes, without exception, are carnivores. There is not a vegan among them. They all eat flesh.

Are we beginning to get the picture now? God says He gave all the plants and seeds for humans to eat. The temptation Eve faced came from an obligate carnivore, an animal that does not eat plant life or seeds. She succumbs, gives it to Adam and he succumbs.

Now they are both aware of, and ashamed of their nakedness. They actually hide because their awareness brings them fear. Fear of what? I'd say that the fear had something to do with the idea that they had consumed flesh, not some "forbidden fruit", and were now aware that they as flesh beings could be desired and consumed, and further, that they had consumed something God did not allow and that their bodies were not designed for.

 

[Messy]

I'm wondering why anyone would WANT to be nude in public, in front of non-family?


.

I think it's okay when it's only women or only men, cause you also shower in high school with others, at least in my country when I was young, but even that was tricky, cause the gym teacher would go check if we showered, so I don't know if they still do that in schools. Some women from the office ages ago wanted to go to a sauna, women only day. I think you may do that as a christian, but why?? I'm not gonna sit like that with my female boss and chat. No thanks.

 

[Albion]

I'd say that you've made a "case" for BEING nude (and not more than that) while in the company of strangers and other people and under certain circumstances. You also correctly noted that the circumstances are very limited.

However, "Nudism" is so much more than that.

With Nudism, the idea is to go about living something like a normal daily routine and to do it in the company of other naked people of both sexes--often quite a few of them--who are not your own loved ones, hospital personnel, or etc.

 

[rcouple]

I'd say that you've made a "case" for BEING nude (and not more than that) while in the company of strangers and other people and under certain circumstances. You also correctly noted that the circumstances are very limited.

However, "Nudism" is so much more than that.

With Nudism, the idea is to go about living something like a normal daily routine and to do it in the company of other naked people of both sexes--often quite a few of them--who are not your own loved ones, hospital personnel, or etc.

Albion, I can honestly say that I agree with what you have said above.
There is a time and place for public nudity. I would be happy if nudity was allowed at beaches, parks, and other outside locations. We should be able to be naked outside on our own property for sure no matter what our neighbors think about nudity. Thankfully, we live on a property that is relatively private and our family was always outside naked and our neighbors were not only fine with it but even joined in at times.

 

[Albion]

Albion, I can honestly say that I agree with what you have said above.
There is a time and place for public nudity.

Unfortunately for this discussion, however, I didn't say that "there is a time and a place for public nudity."

That is what YOU said. What I said is that there are very limited times and places for being nude out of necessity. That's NOT me saying that there's a time and a place for "public nudity" and certainly not as a lifestyle of the kind that you advocate for.