Why did God allow the holocaust to happen to His chosen people?

pinacled

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Perhaps to you it was a respected Bible scholar. To us we see a random guy on the internet making an assertion backed by, well, nothing at all. Even now all you're giving us is "well respected Bible scholar" without even a hint as to who, or any means of determining how this person drew their conclusions.
Instead of "well respected scholar", it's possible that jrt meant to say "well published author".
Specifically "12 points of reform".
 
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JRT

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Have you ever heard anyone claim he is antisemitic?
Excerpt:
[ Nazi anti-Semitism, which culminated in the Holocaust, had a racist dimension in that it targeted Jews because of their supposed biological characteristics—even those who had themselves converted to other religions or whose parents were converts. This variety of anti-Jewish racism dates only to the emergence of so-called “scientific racism” in the 19th century and is different in nature from earlier anti-Jewish prejudices.]

JSS is not a scholar

I do not have the slightest idea of why anti-Semitism is even an issue here. I have never seen the slightest suggestion of that in Spong's writings or indeed from anyone else. Spong is a fine scholar but I agree not on a par with Wink or Crossan or Borg.
 

JRT

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Instead of "well respected scholar", it's possible that jrt meant to say "well published author".
Specifically "12 points of reform".

I meant exactly what I said.

Have you actually read him or just book reviews from apologists?
 

pinacled

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I meant exactly what I said.

Have you actually read him or just book reviews from apologists?
I watched one of his lectures before responding.
Then researched further for an amiable amount of his resemee(resume')
 

Origen

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tango

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Bishop John Shelby Spong.

If you choose to respond by denigrating him, please don't. I have heard it all.

Do you have a link to where he argued the things you are claiming, or are you just planning to drop a name and expect everyone else to do the work of sourcing your claims?
 

Odë:hgöd

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FAQ: If true that the Jews, as a corporate people, brought the Holocaust upon
themselves in accordance with the language of the covenant that their ancestors
agreed upon with God on oath; then why don't they own up to it instead of always
going about playing the victim and acting so indignant?


A: Well; sad to say: the Jewish people, on the whole, are famous for their obtuse
attitudes; not only in the Bible; but in real life too (cf. 1Thess 2:15). It's so
common and so chronic that we're forced to conclude that their attitude is
actually quite systemic. Finding a Jew who will admit they are wrong-- wrong about
anything --is like searching for the Loch Ness monster and the lost city of Atlantis.

The average John Q and Jane Doe Jew is so defensive, so reactive, so stiff-necked,
so adamant, so self-righteous, so arrogant, and so infected with a chosen-people
superiority complex; that they simply cannot tolerate criticism; not even criticism
coming straight from the mouth of the very God with whom they boast an elite
association; for example:


Zech 7:11-12 . . But they refused to listen; and they turned a rebellious shoulder;
and they made their ears heavy, not to hear. And they made their heart [as hard]
as a shamir, [in order] not to listen to the Torah and to the words that the Lord of
Hosts sent, through His spirit by the earlier prophets. And there was great anger
from the Lord of Hosts.


Dan 9:5-6 . .We have sinned and have dealt iniquitously; we have dealt wickedly
and have rebelled, turning away from Your commandments and from Your
ordinances.


Dan 9:10-11 . .And we have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord our God, to
follow His teachings, which He placed before us by the hand of His servants, the
prophets. And all Israel have transgressed Your teaching, turning away, not
heeding Your voice, and the curse and the oath, which are written in the Law of
Moses, the servant of God, have befallen us, for we have sinned against Him.

Jews have been playing the victim card for decades, and getting away with it too;
so it really riles them whenever somebody dares to suggest that the misfortunes
that have overtaken them down through the years, as well as the problems that
plague them now, are due to exactly what Daniel and Zechariah said. For example:

The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God requires Him to preserve
peace in the land of Israel when His people are compliant. Well; that land has been
in a perpetual state of war since the day of its inception in 1948 and nobody is safe
over there.

The covenant also obligates God to restore Israel's borders when they are
compliant. Well; the State of Israel doesn't even have control over the Temple
Mount let alone its covenanted borders.

The covenant also obligates God to provide the State of Israel with abundant rain
when the people are compliant. Well; if not for ground water and/or desalination,
Israel wouldn't have much of an agriculture. Alas, the historical Jordan River has
been reduced to a toxic trickle of its former self because so much water is pumped
out of it for irrigation. A few years back, the Sea Of Galilee was so low it almost
reached a level called the black line, which is a depth of water in the lake that
results in permanent damage to the water's quality.

This concludes posts No.3, No.7, No.12, and No.14
_
 

pinacled

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I meant exactly what I said.

Have you actually read him or just book reviews from apologists?
You avoided my que.
 

pinacled

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Do you have a link to where he argued the things you are claiming, or are you just planning to drop a name and expect everyone else to do the work of sourcing your claims?
Calling the account of iyov a parable is a farse used by germans such as .......

A witness by HaShem denigrated with philosophy is a shame to history.
 

pinacled

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Do you have a link to where he argued the things you are claiming, or are you just planning to drop a name and expect everyone else to do the work of sourcing your claims?
I wonder if jrt is exposing something?
 

pinacled

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FAQ: If true that the Jews, as a corporate people, brought the Holocaust upon
themselves in accordance with the language of the covenant that their ancestors
agreed upon with God on oath; then why don't they own up to it instead of always
going about playing the victim and acting so indignant?


A: Well; sad to say: the Jewish people, on the whole, are famous for their obtuse
attitudes; not only in the Bible; but in real life too (cf. 1Thess 2:15). It's so
common and so chronic that we're forced to conclude that their attitude is
actually quite systemic. Finding a Jew who will admit they are wrong-- wrong about
anything --is like searching for the Loch Ness monster and the lost city of Atlantis.

The average John Q and Jane Doe Jew is so defensive, so reactive, so stiff-necked,
so adamant, so self-righteous, so arrogant, and so infected with a chosen-people
superiority complex; that they simply cannot tolerate criticism; not even criticism
coming straight from the mouth of the very God with whom they boast an elite
association; for example:


Zech 7:11-12 . . But they refused to listen; and they turned a rebellious shoulder;
and they made their ears heavy, not to hear. And they made their heart [as hard]
as a shamir, [in order] not to listen to the Torah and to the words that the Lord of
Hosts sent, through His spirit by the earlier prophets. And there was great anger
from the Lord of Hosts.


Dan 9:5-6 . .We have sinned and have dealt iniquitously; we have dealt wickedly
and have rebelled, turning away from Your commandments and from Your
ordinances.


Dan 9:10-11 . .And we have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord our God, to
follow His teachings, which He placed before us by the hand of His servants, the
prophets. And all Israel have transgressed Your teaching, turning away, not
heeding Your voice, and the curse and the oath, which are written in the Law of
Moses, the servant of God, have befallen us, for we have sinned against Him.

Jews have been playing the victim card for decades, and getting away with it too;
so it really riles them whenever somebody dares to suggest that the misfortunes
that have overtaken them down through the years, as well as the problems that
plague them now, are due to exactly what Daniel and Zechariah said. For example:

The covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God requires Him to preserve
peace in the land of Israel when His people are compliant. Well; that land has been
in a perpetual state of war since the day of its inception in 1948 and nobody is safe
over there.

The covenant also obligates God to restore Israel's borders when they are
compliant. Well; the State of Israel doesn't even have control over the Temple
Mount let alone its covenanted borders.

The covenant also obligates God to provide the State of Israel with abundant rain
when the people are compliant. Well; if not for ground water and/or desalination,
Israel wouldn't have much of an agriculture. Alas, the historical Jordan River has
been reduced to a toxic trickle of its former self because so much water is pumped
out of it for irrigation. A few years back, the Sea Of Galilee was so low it almost
reached a level called the black line, which is a depth of water in the lake that
results in permanent damage to the water's quality.

This concludes posts No.3, No.7, No.12, and No.14
_
Are sadducees welcome in the resurection ?
 

pinacled

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" nothing new under the sun....."

1 Corinthians 15
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.]


 

Odë:hgöd

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1Cor 5:6b-8 . . Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of
dough?

This principle is very old. When God permitted Nebuchadnezzar to conquer Israel
and take many of the people into captivity; good Jews as well as bad were taken.
For example: Daniel and his friends Shadrach Meshach, and Abednego were all
good Jews who didn't deserve to be taken into exile. But Daniel accepted his
circumstances because he and his buddies were all part of the same lump of dough.
(Dan 9:5-11)

The same thing happened during the Holocaust. Good Jews as well as bad were
rounded up and taken to Auschwitz camps.

There are other times recorded in the Old Testament when God moved against His
people corporately rather than individually. When that happens, they all get
slammed: the pious and the impious together.

The first few chapters of the book of Revelation list several of Jesus' complaints
about specific churches. It's unlikely that every member of those churches deserved
criticism, but Jesus slammed them all as corporate bodies rather than individuals.
So then if, and/or when, those churches failed to correct their shortcomings; the
whole church-- the good and the bad --suffered consequences.
_
 

Lamb

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1Cor 5:6b-8 . . Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of
dough?

This principle is very old. When God permitted Nebuchadnezzar to conquer Israel
and take many of the people into captivity; good Jews as well as bad were taken.
For example: Daniel and his friends Shadrach Meshach, and Abednego were all
good Jews who didn't deserve to be taken into exile. But Daniel accepted his
circumstances because he and his buddies were all part of the same lump of dough.
(Dan 9:5-11)

The same thing happened during the Holocaust. Good Jews as well as bad were
rounded up and taken to Auschwitz camps.

There are other times recorded in the Old Testament when God moved against His
people corporately rather than individually. When that happens, they all get
slammed: the pious and the impious together.

The first few chapters of the book of Revelation list several of Jesus' complaints
about specific churches. It's unlikely that every member of those churches deserved
criticism, but Jesus slammed them all as corporate bodies rather than individuals.
So then if, and/or when, those churches failed to correct their shortcomings; the
whole church-- the good and the bad --suffered consequences.
_

God did not send people to camps. Evil people did that. Stop blaming God.
 
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