Why did God allow the holocaust to happen to His chosen people?

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
271
Age
37
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Aren’t God’s people the chosen ones?
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
624
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
"In the beginning God ..." may be the most literal word in the Bible. "The problem of evil" is a difficult one for many Christians. It seems to me that God simply does not micromanage the universe in any way.
 

Odë:hgöd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
539
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
.
The OP is a fair question; and in point of fact there has been more than one rabbi
ask the same thing: How is it that so many of Moses' people were caught up in the
Holocaust? Where was God during all that? Why didn't He step in and do something
to protect His chosen people?

To find an answer to that question one need look no further than Ex 34:6-7, Lev
26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69. In other words: the Jews, as a people,
brought it on themselves in accordance with the covenant that their ancestors
agreed upon with God on oath per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

A covenant is essentially a contract. Well; if God were to fail to fulfill His end of the
agreement; then He would be in breach of contract; which is not only unethical, but
also uncivil. Long story short: the covenant requires Him to lower the boom on His
people for failure to honor their end of the agreement; and you can see the extent
of the damage for yourself in the scripture references in the above paragraph.

There are numerous blessings that God is contractually obligated to fulfill too; so
the covenant isn't all one-sided; viz: compliance with the covenant accrues
blessings; while breaching the covenant accrues curses. Anybody who has read the
Old Testament can attest that God came down on His own people quite often for
breaching the covenant; and just as often quite cruelly. The curses that Ex 34:6-7,
Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69 list are very disturbing; and when
examining them, one cannot help but realize they're reading a synopsis of the Jews'
history.

You know; the status of God's chosen people has its advantages; but also its
disadvantages; viz: the status of God's chosen people is not something to be proud
of; but rather, something to fear because the covenant's God is not the kind of
judge influenced by favoritism. No; if anything, Moses' people run the risk of being
judged even more severely than Gentiles because of their privileged position and
the insider's knowledge they were given of His likes and dislikes.


Amos 3:1-2 . . Hear this word that Yhvh has spoken against you, O children of
Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you
for all your iniquities.
_
 

Lämmchen

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
24,344
Age
54
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I was going to just write "Ask Job" because Job had a lot of bad things happen to him that God allowed but did not cause.

But to really answer, we cannot know the true reason why God allows bad things to happen to anyone. Even His most faithful children have horrible things happen. I can only guess that it's for something else that He has planned leading someone to faith in Him.
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
624
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I was going to just write "Ask Job" because Job had a lot of bad things happen to him that God allowed but did not cause.

But to really answer, we cannot know the true reason why God allows bad things to happen to anyone. Even His most faithful children have horrible things happen. I can only guess that it's for something else that He has planned leading someone to faith in Him.

Keep in mind that Job is a parable.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
10,275
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Aren’t God’s people the chosen ones?


God's people in the New Covenant has nothing to do with the biological descendants of Abraham.... God's people, God's children are Christians.

Bad things happen..... Even to God's people. RARELY does God state the reason. "Why?" is often an unanswerable and worthless question, "What now?' is the better one.



.
 

Odë:hgöd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
539
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
.
FAQ: There are actually Christians out there believing it was the Jews' own fault
that they were rounded up like cattle, stripped of their dignity, their property, their
wealth, and their possessions, enslaved, starved, deprived of basic human
necessities, tortured, subjected to Frankenstein medical experiments, worked to
death, and gassed, shot, and incinerated by the millions?


A: If the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God is binding; then yes;
the Jews, as a corporate people, are definitely at fault for what happened to them.
There's really no mystery to this: it's all spelled out in black and white at
Ex 34:6-7, Lev 26:14-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-69. (cf. Deut 29:14-28)


FAQ: God caused an event whose collateral damage led to the deaths of all those
other people too besides the Jews?


A: We're not saying God engineered the Holocaust. All we're saying is: He stood by
and did nothing to prevent a number of His own people being taken in it. In other
words: the essential thing that Moses' people brought upon themselves was the
loss of God's providence. I think God took advantage of Hitler's agenda as an
opportunity; viz: a convenient means of throwing His people to the wolves like He
did in the Old Testament with Nebuchadnezzar.

The covenant Moses' people agreed upon with God on oath obligates Him to protect
them from misfortune when they're compliant with it; but the same time the
covenant also obligates God to lower the boom on them when they're not compliant
with it. If there is only one good thing to come out of the Holocaust is that it proves
to the world that God is reliable, viz: He can be trusted to honor His commitments.
_
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
624
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
.
FAQ: There are actually Christians out there believing it was the Jews' own fault
that they were rounded up like cattle, stripped of their dignity, their property, their
wealth, and their possessions, enslaved, starved, deprived of basic human
necessities, tortured, subjected to Frankenstein medical experiments, worked to
death, and gassed, shot, and incinerated by the millions?

It is ironic that with very little editing that statement could pretty much described the slave trade.
 

Lämmchen

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
24,344
Age
54
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Keep in mind that Job is a parable.

Nope. No where does scripture state that Job is merely a parable.
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
624
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
In the Hebrew/Jewish literary tradition the parable is a common teaching tool. There are several entire Biblical books that are parables plus several more that are in large part parabolic.
 

Odë:hgöd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
539
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
.
FAQ: Supposing we're right; that there is no one to blame for the loss of Jewish life
in the Holocaust but the Jews themselves? If so; then how many of them would've
had to breach the covenant to put them all in so much danger?


A: It's surprising how few Jews it takes to ruin it for all the rest. For example the
incident at Ai in the 7th chapter of Joshua. The insubordination of one insignificant
Jewish man-- just one --caused God to stop assisting Joshua's army in battle. As a
result, 36 men were needlessly killed in action; and ultimately capital punishment
was inflicted upon not only the insubordinate man himself, but also his sons and his
daughters. God's accusation? "Israel has sinned" (Josh 7:11)

See that? God didn't accuse the perpetrator; no; He accused Israel. In other words:
in that particular incident; the sin of just one Jew under Joshua's command became
the sin of all the Jews under his command; viz: the whole kit and caboodle-- lock,
stock, and barrel; and Israel could proceed no further with its conquest of Canaan
until the guilty man was executed.

And then there's this incident:


2Sam 21:1 . . Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year
after year; and David sought the presence of the Lord. And the Lord said: It is for
Saul and his bloody house, because he put the Gibeonites to death.

Joshua agreed to a non-aggression pact with the Gibeonites during the conquest of
Canaan (Josh 9:3-16). Saul, when king, dishonored the pact. He apparently got
away with it; but not his countrymen, no; God slammed them for what Saul did;
and that posthumously.

In another Old Testament incident; God lowered the boom on 70,000 Jews. What
did they do to deserve it? Absolutely nothing. The insubordination of just one
Jewish man caused their deaths. King David breached the covenant that Moses'
people agreed upon with God by taking an unwarranted census. As a result; those
70,000 Jews went to their deaths through no fault of their own; it was all on David.

I can't imagine what just one Jew would have to do in order to bring about the
deaths of six million of his fellows; but if a whole bunch of them throughout the
world were breaching the covenant all at the same time, I guess that could become
a sort of force-multiplier.

That's pretty scary when you think about it because more than fifty percent of the
Jews living in the State of Israel right now today are hiloni (secular). In my
estimation, that's easily enough insubordinate Jews all in one place for God to
justify bringing down the whole country; and then if you combine those with the
number of insubordinate Jews around the rest of the world, including the USA; now
you can appreciate just how insecure Israel's future really is.

Another possibility is that the generation caught by the Holocaust, was caught not
only due to their own breaches of the covenant, but also due to breaches
committed by generations preceding them.


Ex 34:6-7 . . Then Yhvh passed by in front of Moses and proclaimed: Yhvh, Yhvh
God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving-kindness
and truth; who keeps loving-kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity,
transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished: visiting
the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and
fourth generations.

That statement is included in the covenant, so God is morally obligated to honor it
lest He be found in breach of contract. But it just goes to show that sins have a way
of snow-balling from one generation to the next till the snowball is so big that it
triggers an act of God; which is really scary because it tells me that it's not
impossible that the Jews of today are endangering the Jews of tomorrow by their
current breaches of the covenant-- breaches that according to Ex 34:6-7, God will
by no means sweep under the rug.

Wouldn't it be awful if the next Holocaust took place right inside the Jews' own
homeland? I sincerely believe that Saddam Hussein's SCUDS were a wake-up call.
Next time; incoming missiles just may contain nuclear warheads instead of high
explosives; and Jacob's people will be poisoned to death with radiation instead of
pesticide.

The upside to the Holocaust is its value as historical evidence for the existence of
the covenant's God. It is also valuable as historical evidence that the covenant was
still in force for Moses' people as recent as the middle of the last century. True; the
covenant is obsolete where Christians are concerned, but that old dog can still
bark; and it will be the basis in the future to decide which Jews return to their
homeland and which don't. (Ezek 20:33-38)

I believe it's okay to pity the Jews as per Lam 1:12; but I do not believe it is
appropriate to let them get away with playing the victim all the time. That's just a
red herring diverting attention away from their own chronic failure to honor the
covenant in a manner consistent with their God's requirements.
_
 

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
10,437
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
In the Hebrew/Jewish literary tradition the parable is a common teaching tool. There are several entire Biblical books that are parables plus several more that are in large part parabolic.

With respect, it takes more than some random guy on the internet saying something to make it so. Do you have anything specific to back your assertion that Job is a parable and nothing more?
 

Odë:hgöd

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
539
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
.
POSIT: Your degree of anti-Semitism is unacceptable; especially coming from
somebody passing themselves off as a Christian!


RESPONSE: Jehovah's very own criticisms, and the prophets' writings too, contain
far more of what can be construed as "anti-Semitism" than anything I've written.
For example: the book of Isaiah opens with this:


Isa 1:1-3 . . The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah
and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of
Judah. Hear O heavens! and give ear O earth! for Yhvh has spoken. Children I have
raised and exalted, yet they have rebelled against Me. An ox knows his owner and a
donkey his master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not think about it.

Oxen and burros are well known for their below-average IQ; but in His indictment,
Jehovah complained that those two species of barnyard beasts of burden have
more brains than His own people when it comes to appreciating His providence; and
Jehovah's statement: "they have rebelled against me" mirrors the age-old
colloquialism of biting the hand that feeds you.

There are so many anti-Semitic comments and remarks throughout the book of
Isaiah that sometimes it's actually difficult to believe it wasn't penned by a
Palestinian instead of a patriot; and that's only Isaiah, some of the other prophets
are just as harsh.


NOTE: The term "holocaust" comes from the Greek word holókauston, referring to
an animal sacrifice offered to a god in which the whole (olos) animal is completely
burnt (kaustos).

That's an appropriate meaning seeing as how a number of observant Jews sincerely
believe that the deaths of six million of their fellows via German atrocities during
the second world war satisfied certain teachings and predictions in the 53rd chapter
of Isaiah's prophecy. A rabbinic interpretation of that chapter proposes, in so many
words, that the fate of Jehovah's people at the hands of Hitler's minions
accomplished the salvation of the world.

The interpretation is a bit involved so I won't go into it here; but suffice to say that
the interpretation provides, for some, the only rational explanation as to why
Jehovah stood by and did nothing to prevent so many of His own people from being
rounded up like cattle, stripped of their dignity, their property, their wealth, and
their possessions, enslaved, starved, malnourished, deprived of basic human
necessities, tortured, subjected to Frankenstein medical experiments, worked to
death, and gassed, shot, and incinerated by the millions by Nazi mad men.

The error of that interpretation is so obvious that it's almost below me to point it
out; to wit: Judaism regards human sacrifice as a breach of the covenant that
Moses' people agreed upon with God; and also sincerely believes that human
sacrifice is an abomination.

There are astute Bible scholars of the opinion that the Jewish genocide of the last
century was only a taste of one to come in the future when a super powerful
political figure, known to just about everybody as the anti-Christ, will target
Jehovah's people with another mass extinction. They say his won't be confined to
Europe like the last one, but will encompass the entire globe so that Jews won't be
safe anywhere on the planet.

Those scholars also believe that the present State of Israel isn't permanent; but
that it will be conquered and the Jews lose control of their homeland all over again.
I don't know for myself whether those scholars are right, but if they are, then it
would appear that the future of Jehovah's people at this point in time is looking
mighty grim, to say the least.
_
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
624
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
With respect, it takes more than some random guy on the internet saying something to make it so. Do you have anything specific to back your assertion that Job is a parable and nothing more?

It wasn't "some random guy". It was at a day long seminar with a well respected Bible scholar. I am not sure whether this was his own thesis or that of other scholars. It makes eminent good sense as well because each of these extended parables has a societal context. The parable is crafted to address a societal evil. In particular Job addressed a version of "prosperity gospel" that was current at the time. On the other hand Jonah was addressing the evil of ethnic cleansing.
 

Origen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
106
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It wasn't "some random guy". It was at a day long seminar with a well respected Bible scholar.
Name please?
 
Last edited:

tango

... and you shall live ...
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
10,437
Location
Realms of chaos
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It wasn't "some random guy". It was at a day long seminar with a well respected Bible scholar. I am not sure whether this was his own thesis or that of other scholars. It makes eminent good sense as well because each of these extended parables has a societal context. The parable is crafted to address a societal evil. In particular Job addressed a version of "prosperity gospel" that was current at the time. On the other hand Jonah was addressing the evil of ethnic cleansing.

Perhaps to you it was a respected Bible scholar. To us we see a random guy on the internet making an assertion backed by, well, nothing at all. Even now all you're giving us is "well respected Bible scholar" without even a hint as to who, or any means of determining how this person drew their conclusions.
 

JRT

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
624
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
1,693
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Bishop John Shelby Spong.

If you choose to respond by denigrating him, please don't. I have heard it all.
Have you ever heard anyone claim he is antisemitic?
Excerpt:
[ Nazi anti-Semitism, which culminated in the Holocaust, had a racist dimension in that it targeted Jews because of their supposed biological characteristics—even those who had themselves converted to other religions or whose parents were converts. This variety of anti-Jewish racism dates only to the emergence of so-called “scientific racism” in the 19th century and is different in nature from earlier anti-Jewish prejudices.]

JSS is not a scholar
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom