Why Christ said we have to go Beyond the Law

[Frankj]

Jesus did not teach that we add works for salvation. The Law tells us we have to do things for our salvation...but we cannot do them perfectly because of sin. That's why Jesus had to die on the cross. The Gospel tells us that Jesus alone saves us.

Baptism isn't a work we do. It's connected to the cross where God brings to us by water and word the benefits from there.

At least you are recognizing that our works are tied to our salvation now, which is what I have contended all along. Baptism alone does not bring salvation, and sometimes Baptism alone does not bring the Holy Spirit as is shown in Acts 8:14–17.

God does not do everything for us, we have to do our part as well for the completeness of our salvation.

 

[Lamb]

At least you are recognizing that our works are tied to our salvation now, which is what I have contended all along. Baptism alone does not bring salvation, and sometimes Baptism alone does not bring the Holy Spirit as is shown in Acts 8:14–17.

God does not do everything for us, we have to do our part as well for the completeness of our salvation.

Our works do NOT contribute to salvation. They flow from us because the Holy Spirit is doing the works He intends for us to do, but they are not a reason we have salvation, but because we have salvation.

Baptism is God's work. It's what HE does, not us. He wants to give the promises of the cross to everyone through the waters of baptism. That's not works by us.

So you say you have a part to do...how much do you have to do to satisfy the Lord?

 

[Frankj]

So you say you have a part to do...how much do you have to do to satisfy the Lord?

You will find your answer in the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, that red letter part.

We are not in agreement on this and I doubt we will become such so, there is really no point in discussing it further for now, consider the reason for closed communion as Lutherans practice, or at least used to if it has changed, and you will understand why I say this.

 

[Lamb]

You will find your answer in the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, that red letter part.

We are not in agreement on this and I doubt we will become such so, there is really no point in discussing it further for now, consider the reason for closed communion as Lutherans practice, or at least used to if it has changed, and you will understand why I say this.

Jesus is God and He speaks to us by His word which is the entirety of scriptures. You can't pick and choose what you want God to say.

Close Communion has nothing to do with this topic.

 

[Frankj]

It's Jesus words that I am talking about.

Closed communion is intended to keep only people of like belief from participating, single minded as such.

Because when single mindedness does not exist within the Church, it has little or no power other than ordinary social movements do.

I don't see why people find this so hard to understand.

 

[Lamb]

It's Jesus words that I am talking about.

Closed communion is intended to keep only people of like belief from participating, single minded as such.

Because when single mindedness does not exist within the Church, it has little or no power other than ordinary social movements do.

I don't see why people find this so hard to understand.

Jesus words...how are they so different from what God says throughout the entire bible? You seem to deny that the entire bible is authored by the Holy Spirit. That's a problem.

 

[Frankj]

Jesus words...how are they so different from what God says throughout the entire bible? You seem to deny that the entire bible is authored by the Holy Spirit. That's a problem.

It was authored through men who spoke different languages than the ones that we speak now and in the later days, the days of the Christ, written in a different language than they were originally spoken in. Then further revised in later days to include, alter or exclude parts of it to satisfy the desires of those doing the inclusion, alteration and exclusions.

But the question remains, do you believe the direct words Jesus spoke or not?

 

[Lamb]

It was authored through men who spoke different languages than the ones that we speak now and in the later days, the days of the Christ, written in a different language than they were originally spoken in. Then further revised in later days to include, alter or exclude parts of it to satisfy the desires of those doing the inclusion, alteration and exclusions.

But the question remains, do you believe the direct words Jesus spoke or not?

If you don't believe that the Holy Spirit inspired those who wrote it, then how would you believe that Jesus' words were accurate?

Jesus didn't contradict what the rest of the bible says. HE is the way.

 

[Frankj]

You seem to be drifting from the original subject of whether baptism alone is sufficient or whether we also have to do something along with it as Jesus taught us to do.

I believe the Holy Spirit directed the original writings, but I also know that man has altered them to suit his purposes since.

If this was not so then all Bibles would say the same thing in the same way without real or implied variations in their meanings, one would be as good as another.

 

[Lamb]

You seem to be drifting from the original subject of whether baptism alone is sufficient or whether we also have to do something along with it as Jesus taught us to do.

I believe the Holy Spirit directed the original writings, but I also know that man has altered them to suit his purposes since.

If this was not so then all Bibles would say the same thing in the same way without real or implied variations in their meanings, one would be as good as another.

Baptism is God's work. It's not something we can do to ourselves. We are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We aren't baptized into anyone else's name. Baptism brings us the benefits of the cross, because it contains God's word. Don't you believe God's word effects faith unto us?

 

[Frankj]

Baptism is God's work. It's not something we can do to ourselves. We are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. We aren't baptized into anyone else's name. Baptism brings us the benefits of the cross, because it contains God's word. Don't you believe God's word effects faith unto us?

Have you ever wondered why Jesus warned us of the wide and narrow gates and the roads leading to them? Or the scriptural warnings of the coming unsound doctrine we are told will deceive most of us as time progresses?

I always rank the words spoken by Jesus, his actual teachings, far above those of any others and try to look back to those who were closest in time to him as a guide as to how we should be as Christians, something not easily done.

 

[Maranatha]

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph.2v8-10, ESV)

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. (Jn.15v4,5, ESV)

 

[Frankj]

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph.2v8-10, ESV)

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. (Jn.15v4,5, ESV)

Are you saying that works are not a part of salvation?

Jesus said they are.

They don't provide salvation in themselves (although the story of Lazarus and the rich man as told by Jesus is interesting to contemplate here) but salvation does not come without requiring them if we are to believe what Jesus taught.

 

[Lamb]

Have you ever wondered why Jesus warned us of the wide and narrow gates and the roads leading to them? Or the scriptural warnings of the coming unsound doctrine we are told will deceive most of us as time progresses?

I always rank the words spoken by Jesus, his actual teachings, far above those of any others and try to look back to those who were closest in time to him as a guide as to how we should be as Christians, something not easily done.

The narrow path are the ones who solely trust in the Savior to save them. The ones who try to work their way unto salvation will fail. They can't ever live up to what the Law demands...perfection.

 

[Frankj]

The narrow path are the ones who solely trust in the Savior to save them. The ones who try to work their way unto salvation will fail. They can't ever live up to what the Law demands...perfection.

The wide path is the one where almost all will walk, deluding themselves that they are not on it. Those are the ones who will be told 'I never knew you' come judgment day. They will be the vast majority of those who think they are following what Jesus taught but were not.

When Jesus said few will enter the narrow gate I doubt he thought of hundreds of millions over the centuries as being few, always think about that. 'Few' does not mean the mainstream.

James told us that faith without works is dead. I ask you, can dead faith bring us living salvation?

 

[Lamb]

The wide path is the one where almost all will walk, deluding themselves that they are not on it. Those are the ones who will be told 'I never knew you' come judgment day. They will be the vast majority of those who think they are following what Jesus taught but were not.

When Jesus said few will enter the narrow gate I doubt he thought of hundreds of millions over the centuries as being few, always think about that. 'Few' does not mean the mainstream.

James told us that faith without works is dead. I ask you, can dead faith bring us living salvation?

I ask you, since the Holy Spirit guides us to do works, would He allow faith to be dead? Works don't contribute to what Jesus already won for you!

 

[Frankj]

I ask you, since the Holy Spirit guides us to do works, would He allow faith to be dead? Works don't contribute to what Jesus already won for you!

Not that's a truly interesting question that leads me to wonder why James would make that statement at all.

What would you think would lead him to say that?

A great deal of discussion could come from this and the implications it carries.

 

[Maranatha]

Are you saying that works are not a part of salvation

I would say that the "works" that James mentions are evidence of our faith and therefore of our salvation.

From the OT:
It was GOD who saved the Israelites out of the house of slavery (Deut.5:6)
He saved them from slavery so that they may serve Him and worship him and Him alone.
(Exod. 8:1, and many more verses)

Will try and put some NT verses together in another post