Why can't the bread & wine be the body & blood of the Lord?

[MoreCoffee]

Why can't the bread & wine be the body & blood of the Lord?

Some appear to teach that the bread and wine of the holy Eucharist is just bread and wine (for many grape juice rather than wine) but why can't it be what Jesus said it is; namely that it is, as Jesus said, "my body" and as he also said when speaking of of the wine in the cup "this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Isn't the core of Christian faith belief in what Jesus says? And doesn't that imply trust in his truthfulness? He says that the bread is his body and the wine is his blood so why not believe him?

EDITED: to correct some poor grammar and make the intended meaning clear.

 

[Josiah]

Current, extensive discussion of various views of Communion:

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical

 

[MoreCoffee]

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical

I am not going to re-read that long winded re-post of yours. I read it some weeks ago and thought it irrelevant clap trap anyway.

 

[Rens]

Why can't the bread & wine be the body & blood of the Lord?

Some appear to teach that the bread and wine of the holy eucharist is just bread and wine (for many grape juice rather than wine) but why can't it be what Jesus said it is; namely that is it as Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Isn't the core of Christian faith belief in Jesus Christ and that implies trust in his truthfulness. He says that the bread is his body and the wine is his blood so why not believe him?

If it is, it's spiritually. Drinking of literal blood is forbidden in the Bible.

 

[Rens]

I am not going to re-read that long winded re-post of yours. I read it some weeks ago and thought it irrelevant clap trap anyway.

I can copy paste it in this thread LOL.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I can copy paste it in this thread LOL.

No thanks

 

[MoreCoffee]

If it is, it's spiritually. Drinking of literal blood is forbidden in the Bible.

Are you under the Law that you fear taking the blood of Christ?

 

[Rens]

Are you under the Law that you fear taking the blood of Christ?

Well I can't be lawless. I don't fear taking it. You apply it if you pray for someone, but drinking?? Why?
The gentiles may still not take blood from animals according to acts.
cause you get their soul in you then so from Jesus its good to have His Soul in you, that's why I think it's spiritual and just common sense. When God changed the Nile to literal blood it wasnt still water, it was blood.

 

[Rens]

God didnt ask the disciples to offer Jesus. Its murder. You just accept the gift but it was sin that they killed Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well I can't be lawless. I don't fear taking it. You apply it if you pray for someone, but drinking?? Why?
The gentiles may still not take blood from animals according to acts.
cause you get their soul in you then so from Jesus its good to have His Soul in you, that's why I think it's spiritual and just common sense. When God changed the Nile to literal blood it wasnt still water, it was blood.

But everybody in the other threads is saying that they are lawless and that is why they need do nothing and in fact glory in doing nothing in their theology of salvation.

 

[Josiah]

they need do nothing and in fact glory in doing nothing in their theology of salvation.

Correct. And as a Catholic, you find this horrible, heretical (your denomination excommunicated Luther and split itself to reject the idea that JESUS is the Savior and thus it's Jesus that saves us).

Again, try reading this, my Catholic brother and friend....


I know of no Christian who is in any sense whatsoever "allergic" to good works. I just know Christians who believe in Christ as the Savior (rather than self) and thus look to Christ's works for justification (narrow) rather than those of self. NO ONE is remotely claiming works are unimportant - Protestants simply believe we are not to confuse our words with Christs. It's really not rocket science, it's just those who INSIST on making self as big as possible and Christ as little as possible will twist, confuse, blend, mix up, gum up, spin things into such a confusing (and often Hindu sounding) MESS.



In JUSTIFICATION (narrow) it's CHRIST's works that matter since Jesus is the Savior. Not self. Those who want to strip Jesus of that role (demoting him to just a possibility-maker or yet another helper) will do all they can to evade this or creatively spin it.


In SANCTIFICATION (narrow) - the lives of CHRISTIANS - it's OUR works that matter - empowered by God, inspired by love - as we progress in Christ-like-ness (but never achieving it).


Yes, works matter...... CHRIST'S in justification, OURS in sanctification. Simple....



The problem is, those who reject Christ as THE (one and only) Savior (the sufficient one) will need to confuse/mix/blend Law and Gospel, Christ and self, Justification and Sanctification all to strip Christ of His role as Savior.... to lift up self rather than the Cross. It's simple... and obvious..... unless one's ego insists on twisting it horribly so as to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible, self as big and glorious as possible - trying to spin Christianity so that it's like the other world religions (just with a largely irrelevant Christ put in there, for no particular reason).


Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God didnt ask the disciples to offer Jesus. Its murder. You just accept the gift but it was sin that they killed Him.

Jesus offered himself. Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[atpollard]

Why can't the bread & wine be the body & blood of the Lord?

Some appear to teach that the bread and wine of the holy eucharist is just bread and wine (for many grape juice rather than wine) but why can't it be what Jesus said it is; namely that is it as Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Isn't the core of Christian faith belief in Jesus Christ and that implies trust in his truthfulness. He says that the bread is his body and the wine is his blood so why not believe him?

Genesis 9:1-4
So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood."

It is forbidden by the law given by God to Noah and his decendents (all mankind). Thus for Jesus to violate the law of God at the last supper by literally serving his flesh and blood, would make Jesus a sinner and negate the perfect, sinless sacrifice of God.


1 Chronicles 11:19 And he said, “Far be it from me, O my God, that I should do this! Shall I drink the blood of these men who have put their lives in jeopardy? For at the risk of their lives they brought it.” Therefore he would not drink it. These things were done by the three mighty men.

Drinking blood from a cup was used mataphorically by the first King David (a typology of the expected 'seed' of Eve and David that would remove the curse and establish the True (eternal) "Israel" [aka. the Israel of God].) Thus it is fitting for the second David, the King of Kings, to also use a cup of blood metaphorically.


Psalm 16:4 ​​Their sorrows shall be multiplied who hasten after another god; Their drink offerings of blood I will not offer, Nor take up their names on my lips.

Drinking blood is how pagans worship false gods, the True God has always called his people to NOT worship him as the pagans worship.


Revelation 16:4-7
4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
​
​​“You are righteous, O Lord,[fn]
​​The One who is and who was and who is to be,[fn]
​​Because You have judged these things.
6 ​​For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
​​And You have given them blood to drink.
​​For[fn] it is their just due.”
​
7 And I heard another from[fn] the altar saying, “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

In Egypt in the OT and Revelation in the NT, the God literally gives people blood to drink as a punishment and a curse. Christ does not curse his bride.


WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthinas 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.

1 Corinthinas 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[fn] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

Colossians 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

1 Thessolonians 5: 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
Hebrews 10: 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
[Jesus sanctified us once with the only body and blood that counted, that broken and shed on the cross, once for all, in order that we are now the Body of Christ. The wafer is about who we already are in Christ and about what God has already done. There is no need for self-cannibalism. We do not need to eat the literal body of Christ ... we ARE the body of Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

atpollard, tell me honestly without disembling and without layers of theological paint what you think of this.

The real presence is a mystery like the hypostatic union is a msytery and like the Blessed Trinity is fundamentally mysterious to us. It is believed but understanding it in something approaching scientific detail is not going to happen so the bread tastes and looks like bread (or a wafer if you prefer that name for the unleavened bread used in Catholic Churches of the Roman Rite) and the wine looks like and tastes like wine yet is declared to be the body and the blood of Christ. I remember reading John Calvin's Institutes on the matter and coming away no better informed than if I had not read it. "Spiritually present" is not very meaningful to me. Jesus said "This is my body" and one human sense confirms it, the sense of hearing with which his words are heard, believed, and received as true. Sight, taste, smell, and texture all fail to confirm the Lord's words yet hearing (with child like belief) receives it as true.​

 

[Rens]

atpollard, tell me honestly without disembling and without layers of theological paint what you think of this.

The real presence is a mystery like the hypostatic union is a msytery and like the Blessed Trinity is fundamentally mysterious to us. It is believed but understanding it in something approaching scientific detail is not going to happen so the bread tastes and looks like bread (or a wafer if you prefer that name for the unleavened bread used in Catholic Churches of the Roman Rite) and the wine looks like and tastes like wine yet is declared to be the body and the blood of Christ. I remember reading John Calvin's Institutes on the matter and coming away no better informed than if I had not read it. "Spiritually present" is not very meaningful to me. Jesus said "This is my body" and one human sense confirms it, the sense of hearing with which his words are heard, believed, and received as true. Sight, taste, smell, and texture all fail to confirm the Lord's words yet hearing (with child like belief) receives it as true.​

It represents His body as it was then, not glorified and broken, killed for us. You can't break the body He has now and if that was possible it would mean we offer Him again. You remember His offer and declare that He died.
I always thought catholics believed it turned to His body from 2000 years ago. That would make more sense.
But suppose He wanted us to do that literal, then why not say to the disciples when He died that they should drink it and not wine that somehow turns into it but His blood at the cross. I think it would be sin. I dont even know those rules but cannibalism isnt really christian. So I think that's why He took wine and bread instead and this is means this represents.
And drinking His blood and eating His flesh spiritually means just become one with Him and eat His Word and believe in Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Rens no passage in the holy scriptures of the new testament say that the bread and the wine represent Jesus' body and blood that's just a bit of unbelief on the part of Protestant theologians and their followers. They do not believe what Jesus said and rather than admit it they pretend that he said "this is my body" as a metaphor. They squirm their way out of believing the holy scriptures and choose to believe their teachers. It's like the Jews who stopped following Jesus when he said Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

 

[Rens]

Rens no passage in the holy scriptures of the new testament say that the bread and the wine represent Jesus' body and blood that's just a bit of unbelief on the part of Protestant theologians and their followers. They do not believe what Jesus said and rather than admit it they pretend that he said "this is my body" as a metaphor. They squirm their way out of believing the holy scriptures and choose to believe their teachers. It's like the Jews how stopped following Jesus when he said Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you

If they had eaten it they still had no Life.
The man on the cross didn't literally do that and still got eternal Life.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If they had eaten it they still had no Life.
The man on the cross didn't literally do that and still got eternal Life.

The man on the cross next to Jesus had no opportunity to receive communion because he was not present at the Lord's supper and he died the day that Jesus died. Nevertheless Jesus says Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you and I believe him. Just as I believe him when he said Take, eat; this is my body. ... taking the cup he said Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. The faithful hear their Master's voice and follow him wherever he leads them. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. [SUP]John 10:27[/SUP]

 

[Rens]

First He says it's His blood, then He said it's the fruit of the vine. And He was there with them with His blood in His Body, alive.

Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom’ ” (Matthew 26:27-29).

 

[MoreCoffee]

First He says it's His blood, then He said it's the fruit of the vine. And He was there with them with His blood in His Body, alive.

Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom’ ” (Matthew 26:27-29).

Why not believe both. The wine in the cup is Jesus' blood and then the passage says that Jesus will not drink of the fruit of the vine until he that day when I drink it new with you in Jesus' Father's kingdom. The cup contains his blood the future drink will be the fruit of the vine.