Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

[Josiah]

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Why are BOTH John Calvin and Jakob Arminius WRONG?


Why are HUMAN attempts to Make God Simple and Logical WRONG?


Why are there NOT just two Options: Greek Fate or Free Will?


Why BOTH Arminians and Calvinists must ignore LOTS of Scriptures to "answer" this question?


This video is part of a class lecture and is 32 minutes long (I realize, too long for many) but he comes to the crux of things around minute 15 (listen to the rest for sure). I invite you to listen to the whole 32 minutes as he explains both Calvin and Arminius - the two theories that prevail today in modern Western Christianity.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqrIOchEN8



The teacher here is Dr. Joel Biermann from Concordia Seminary in Saint Louis.



- Josiah



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[MoreCoffee]

Do you have a pithy summary of the crux of the matter?

 

[Josiah]

Do you have a pithy summary of the crux of the matter?

Not for those without 30 minutes...... Dr. Biermann speaks of the 2 modern Protestant theories to this question - and shows (VERY briefly) why both are wrong. And shows a third approach.... Now this is VERY brief, but if he (and you) had the time, he could point out that actually the ancient church rejected both of these theories too.... as my Greek Orthodox friend points out, "Christians lost the ability to shut up, lost the ability to let God tell us what we need to know, lost all sense of MYSTERY." Biermann introduces later in the video but there's no time to develop it.

Lutherans aren't opposed to asking the question .... just appointing self to "answer" it (and mandate God agrees or God is illogical). Lutherans think that the Predestination idea has merit (we call it "Election") but that Calvin - ignoring SO many Scriptures - takes it much too far. Lutherans think Arminius is right about only one thing: if we aren't saved, it's our fault. Again, the video introduces all this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not for those without 30 minutes...... Dr. Biermann speaks of the 2 modern Protestant theories to this question - and shows (VERY briefly) why both are wrong. And shows a third approach.... Now this is VERY brief, but if he (and you) had the time, he could point out that actually the ancient church rejected both of these theories too.... as my Greek Orthodox friend points out, "Christians lost the ability to shut up, lost the ability to let God tell us what we need to know, lost all sense of MYSTERY." Biermann introduces later in the video but there's no time to develop it.

Lutherans aren't opposed to asking the question .... just appointing self to "answer" it (and mandate God agrees or God is illogical). Lutherans think that the Predestination idea has merit (we call it "Election") but that Calvin - ignoring SO many Scriptures - takes it much too far. Lutherans think Arminius is right about only one thing: if we aren't saved, it's our fault. Again, the video introduces all this.

thanks

 

[atpollard]

Do you have a pithy summary of the crux of the matter?

Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
(The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").

 

[MennoSota]

Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
(The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").

The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
God must have a soft voice if he calls all, but only a few show up. That position paints God as a passive recording and humans as active choosers and deciders of their own fate. It's just a version of semi-pelagian thinking. It's synergistic.

 

[atpollard]

The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
God must have a soft voice if he calls all, but only a few show up. That position paints God as a passive recording and humans as active choosers and deciders of their own fate. It's just a version of semi-pelagian thinking. It's synergistic.

You can watch the video for yourself, but that isn't the sense that I got from it. Lutherans simply refuse to guess at why some are not saved, but embrace the ELECTION half of 'Calvinism' while rejecting "double predestination".

While it contradicts the Westminnster Confession of Faith, it is completely compatible with the Heidelberg Catechism and the version of Classic Reformed Theology that I embrace.

In any event, his presentation of Calvinism was not really true to how a Reformed Thologian would have expressed it. R.C. Sproul would set him straight.
His presentation of Arminianism is not quite as Wesley would have expressed it.
Overall, he didn't do a bad job. His Lutheran roots just showed through.

 

[atpollard]

The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
God must have a soft voice if he calls all, but only a few show up. That position paints God as a passive recording and humans as active choosers and deciders of their own fate. It's just a version of semi-pelagian thinking. It's synergistic.

So rather than tear down, what is your answer to:

Why are so few saved if God is so Soverign?
(A question I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.)

 

[MennoSota]

So rather than tear down, what is your answer to:

Why are so few saved if God is so Soverign?
(A question I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.)

Odd question.
That God would choose to adopt one person throughout all history would be an act of amazing grace. That God chooses to adopt millions upon millions is beyond amazing.
Sovereignty means that the ruler can decide and do whatever he wants and has no need to answer why he chose as he did. God chooses as he wills precisely because he is Sovereign.
Now...why are you such a scared person?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Odd question.
That God would choose to adopt one person throughout all history would be an act of amazing grace. That God chooses to adopt millions upon millions is beyond amazing.
Sovereignty means that the ruler can decide and do whatever he wants and has no need to answer why he chose as he did. God chooses as he wills precisely because he is Sovereign.
Now...why are you such a scared person?

Any amazement that presumably billions are going to writhe in hell for eternity and all by "God's eternal decree"?

 

[MennoSota]

Any amazement that presumably billions are going to writhe in hell for eternity and all by "God's eternal decree"?

By a just Judge and King's sovereign decree? No, I am not amazed by what is right and just.
God is just and justice is good. All humanity is damned to hell by humanities rebellion. It is sad that humans rebelled in Adam, but it is amazing that the just Judge would transfer his Judgment to Jesus atoning sacrifice for those whom he so wills.
Why do you cringe and complain against the Sovereign King and Creator for choosing as He wills without condescending to your desire to know why he makes the choices he does? God owes you or me no explanation.
God is good all the time and all the time God is good.

 

[MoreCoffee]

By a just Judge and King's sovereign decree? No, I am not amazed by what is right and just.
God is just and justice is good. All humanity is damned to hell by humanities rebellion. It is sad that humans rebelled in Adam, but it is amazing that the just Judge would transfer his Judgment to Jesus atoning sacrifice for those whom he so wills.
...

Amazing.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #5:

Fact #1: God wants all men saved.

That comes from the passage 1 Timothy 2:1-6 [emphasis added]:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In that context, might it be pertinent to ask regarding all men (people), "saved from what"?

What light does the Nicee Creed of 325AD throw on the matter?
How about the Nicee Creed of 381AD?
The Apostles' Creed?
The Athanasian Creed?

What does each or any of them have to say on the matter?

Surely one of them must say something.

 

[Imalive]

Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
(The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").

A mystery. That's easy. A lot are not saved cause we have to do what He says. Lester Sumrall, God showed him thousands of ppl falling into hell and said that will happen if you won't preach to them. That was his calling to the ministry.

 

[Imalive]

http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...ge2&highlight=thomas+praying+effectively+lost

 

[MoreCoffee]

Post #5:


That comes from the passage 1 Timothy 2:1-6 [emphasis added]:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In that context, might it be pertinent to ask regarding all men (people), "saved from what"?

What light does the Nicee Creed of 325AD throw on the matter?
How about the Nicee Creed of 381AD?
The Apostles' Creed?
The Athanasian Creed?

What does each or any of them have to say on the matter?

Surely one of them must say something.

Nicene Creed

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered died and was buried.​

On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.​

The Athanasian Creed says something similar.

 

[Josiah]

Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.


CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
(The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").



.

:high5:




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[MoreCoffee]

:high5:

That little green "high 5" guy looks a little off colour

 

[user1234]

Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

CALVINISM:
Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

ARMINIANISM:
Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
(The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").

So going by the above definitions, it appears that the Lutheran position supports osas, then, yes no?
Or are the saved 100% saved by God, but He is unable to keep that which He saved?

The opposition to osas kind of reminds me of a Seinfeld episode, where he made a reservation to rent a car at an airport.

When he got there, there was no car.
He stated, 'But I made a reservation'.

They replied, 'We know, we took the reservation, we know how to take reservations'.
Seinfeld says, 'You dont seem to know the purpose of taking a reservation'.

Airport: We know the purpose.
Seinfeld: Obviously you dont...if you did...I'd have a car!
You might know how to TAKE reservation,
but you dont seem to know how to HOLD one.
And THAT really is the purpose for taking one, isnt it? It's the holding!
Anybody can just TAKE em. (willy-nilly, lol)
But its the HOOLLLDDING that really is key, isn't it? ound:

It seems similar here. Some ppl know how to SAY God saved them (although some dont, it seems, so maybe they're not, but we can't assume that)
But they dont seem to BELIEVE God saved them...
They dont seem to trust that God will KEEP them (HOLD the reservation)

once saved ... maybe?... but not ALWAYS saved? ... maybe?

 

[Albion]

The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.

It is a bit complex, I agree, but what you've said here is definitely not the case. Lutherans essentially say that we are lost without Christ but if given the gift of faith can still lose salvation.