What was it that changed your mind from Traditional beliefs?

[Lamb]

What was it that changed your mind from traditional Christian beliefs?

 

[Albion]

You must mean this question for only those members who actually have had a significant change of mind right?

I don't think of myself as having changed away from traditional Christian beliefs, although I'd gotten interested in a variety of other Christian movements over the course of my life.

 

[Josiah]

I haven't.


.

 

[Messy]

What's traditional? I had no belief and the first church I went to was a pentecostal one, cause my brother went to a bunch, catholic, reformed, whatever and he liked this one best. During the years I got some Word of Faith teachings. I always believed everything they told me until I changed some beliefs thanks to discussions on forums. For instance there was a modalist who said the Father died on the cross and I said that's impossible. How can a Spirit die on a cross? Hey but that's what I was taught in church, some WOF belief that Jesus' Spirit died on the cross, because He was seperated from the Father, so I changed that belief.

 

[Stravinsk]

What was it that changed your mind from traditional Christian beliefs?

What's a "traditional" Christian belief? How do you know that whatever particular belief that is commonly held among Christians was a belief that was held in early Christianity? Christians say "the bible is the word of God" but there was no real access to it prior to the 15th century and the printing press. Some councils decided what was to be included but before all that a person had to rely on a church representative to tell them what it said. It's taken on faith that God left us a book and it's basically in-corruptible, cept it wasn't available widely until the 1400's.

 

[Albion]

What's traditional?

The beliefs that have some kind of track record.

What did the Apostolic church believe? What has been believed basically since the early church?

There is no denomination that today is exactly like the first churches or even those of a few centuries later, but we can generally say that some are traditional and others are built upon certain new ideas of fairly recent origin. As you said, there's no precedent for the Father dying in spirit form on the Cross; that's based on a reassessment of the faith of the historic church.

 

[heavenslight]

What was it that changed your mind from traditional Christian beliefs?

 

[heavenslight]

Can you please clarify what you mean? What constitutes traditional beliefs? What would signify a change in these beliefs? Are you saying that faith doctrine s a departure from traditional Christian beliefs?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

What was it that changed your mind from traditional Christian beliefs?

I read the Bible and put its promises to the test. The results were almost the opposite of what I was expecting.

The promises of healing resulted in my health getting worse and worse. The promises of wisdom resulted in my mental health and cognitive abilities becoming more and more impaired.

The promises of seeking and finding, asking and receiving, knocking and having the door open, resulted in years of confusion and suffering in which God was as silent as a brick wall.

The promises that God would provide resulted in no provision for the financial stability and familial help that I required to have the surgeries that would have improved my quality of life.

Well, maybe it takes time, I said to myself, after all, Jesus did tell people to be persistent in prayer. But the years passed and I kept seeking God with honesty and hope, but the things only seemed to be going downhill (with some minor exceptions).

And all these while almost every single Christian I've talked to online was gaslighting me with platitudes and theodicies about how God never promised us an easy life. Yeah, right! As if I hadn't read the Bible times and times again. The promises are there, written clearly.

The only thing I have to say is: I know that God is real and I hope He gives me a good explanation in the afterlife because my experience in this life so far has been miserable.

 

[Albion]

I read the Bible and put its promises to the test. The results were almost the opposite of what I was expecting.

The promises of healing resulted in my health getting worse and worse. The promises of wisdom resulted in my mental health and cognitive abilities becoming more and more impaired.

The promises of seeking and finding, asking and receiving, knocking and having the door open, resulted in years of confusion and suffering in which God was as silent as a brick wall.

The promises that God would provide resulted in no provision for the financial stability and familial help that I required to have the surgeries that would have improved my quality of life.

That's a rather selective approach to the issue at hand, though, isn't it?

Your response was based on what God can do for you and what Scripture says about it, whereas the question before us asks about "traditional beliefs" and changing away from them. That language suggests that the inquiry is about doctrine such as the Triune nature of God, the divinity of Christ, the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, his coming again, the nature of the sacraments of Baptism and Communion, and basically everything that the historic creeds affirm.

That's not to say that your issues shouldn't be a concern, but at the same time they seem to deal with something that's only on the fringes of the issue we were asked about.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The experiences I enumerated changed my beliefs regarding Christianity itself. I no longer find myself in a position to know whether anything written in the Bible is true or not. If the things I have tested did not bring the promised results, and I don't have the means of testing everything in the Bible, I can only conclude that I can't envision a way of finding out which parts are true and which aren't.

I am left with the conclusion that there is a supernatural Being I call "God", and that this supernatural Being may have interacted with certain regions of human civilization. I am inclined to believe in the historicity of Jesus' life, crucifixion and resurrection, but I don't have any certitude in regards to its purpose, or to some of the things you mentioned (divinity, Trinity, sacraments etc.).

 

[Albion]

The experiences I enumerated changed my beliefs regarding Christianity itself. I no longer find myself in a position to know whether anything written in the Bible is true or not. If the things I have tested did not bring the promised results, and I don't have the means of testing everything in the Bible, I can only conclude that I can't envision a way of finding out which parts are true and which aren't.

I understand, but this wasn't what the question that was put to us appeared to be asking about. That was my point.

But since you have now elaborated on your issue, it may be worth taking note that many churches, clergy, and theologians think it's a mistake to challenge God to produce. To expect God to come across with our requests...or else.

Many would counsel you that testing God that way--which is exactly what you said you were doing--is not likely to bring the results you were seeking. And it doesn't prove either that God doesn't or can't respond as promised simply because there are some people who don't have the proper intentions.

 

[Messy]

I understand, but this wasn't what the question that was put to us appeared to be asking about. That was my point.

But since you have now elaborated on your issue, it may be worth taking note that many churches, clergy, and theologians think it's a mistake to challenge God to produce. To expect God to come across with our requests...or else.

Many would counsel you that testing God that way--which is exactly what you said you were doing--is not likely to bring the results you were seeking. And it doesn't prove either that God doesn't or can't respond as promised simply because there are some people who don't have the proper intentions.

It's not gonna work if you ask God to heal you. My dad once said, when he didn't believe in God yet: That's not praying what you guys do. That's demanding. You can't demand God to heal you, but you can demand sickness to leave in His Name and only in the rare case that it's someone's time it's not His will. Even then it works. My people perish because of lack of knowledge. Smith Wigglesworth just raised his wife from the dead for the 2nd time. That much authority he had been given, but God said he should let her go. It was her time. We had some gypsies in church and their grandmother died, so they simply demanded that she'd come back and she said that they should let her go, cause she was walking with Jesus and then they let her go.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

My people perish because of lack of knowledge.

Why doesn't He give His people knowledge then? Why did He give His people a book of confusing parables that can and has been interpreted by thousands of people in thousands of different ways? Why didn't He mention a clear, step-by-step way of performing miracles, like the building of the tabernacle was dictated step-by-step?

that it's someone's time

Why is it someone's time? Why would people have a pre-defined, unequal lifespan? Why would some people be given less than a decade and others 11 decades? How does it makes sense for a young atheist to die and end up in hell and another atheist to be given another 7 decades of life so that he may have time to seek God more and be saved?

 

[Albion]

Why doesn't He give His people knowledge then? Why did He give His people a book of confusing parables that can and has been interpreted by thousands of people in thousands of different ways? Why didn't He mention a clear, step-by-step way of performing miracles, like the building of the tabernacle was dictated step-by-step?

Well, for one thing, he was channeling his revelations through human beings who were inspired to write it down, but not like a court stenographer would do. These were men of their own times and cultures, and in addition the wisdom of the Bible was recorded over many hundreds of years. All of this you know, but we don't often think about it.

Why is it someone's time?

Why does God have his own schedule, knowing when the right time is for whatever it is that we're talking about? That should be fairly obvious, I'd say. We often pray because we want something that we think we should have, but it's not in God's plans...and for a good reason that we aren't aware of.

While we are to pray, and prayer is answered, most people do realize that it's often the case that what we thought we should have wouldn't be right for us after all, or that the present isn't the time when we should have it, etc. We do have to "let God be God," as the expression goes.

Why would people have a pre-defined, unequal lifespan? Why would some people be given less than a decade and others 11 decades?

This is all part of the package of consequences that befell humanity as a result of Adam's sin. None of it would have occurred, no death at all would be our fate, if that Original Sin of our first parents had not happened. And of course, we wouldn't need a Savior if that were the situation. So instead, we are mortal with all the failings of physical flesh, at least for awhile.

 

[Messy]

Why doesn't He give His people knowledge then? Why did He give His people a book of confusing parables that can and has been interpreted by thousands of people in thousands of different ways? Why didn't He mention a clear, step-by-step way of performing miracles, like the building of the tabernacle was dictated step-by-step?


Why is it someone's time? Why would people have a pre-defined, unequal lifespan? Why would some people be given less than a decade and others 11 decades? How does it makes sense for a young atheist to die and end up in hell and another atheist to be given another 7 decades of life so that he may have time to seek God more and be saved?

He did that. He taught His disciples how to heal the sick. But later the church changed it. Someone's time for a christian I mean. Then it's no use to pray. Why atheists don't live long I don't know. Maybe they have noone who prays for them. Almost all Wales got saved because a man prayed all day every day and then the others too. Who prays nowadays? We had prayer with church from 6 to 8 pm to pray for the lost and 2 or 4 ppl showed up. The rest rather stayed in bed. The church doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Well, for one thing, he was channeling his revelations through human beings who were inspired to write it down, but not like a court stenographer would do. These were men of their own times and cultures, and in addition the wisdom of the Bible was recorded over many hundreds of years. All of this you know, but we don't often think about it.

So were the instructions for the tabernacle. What is your point? If God could make detailed instructions for the tabernacle survive in a book for 3000 years, He could do the same thing for any information He wanted us to have.

Why does God have his own schedule, knowing when the right time is for whatever it is that we're talking about? That should be fairly obvious, I'd say. We often pray because we want something that we think we should have, but it's not in God's plans...and for a good reason that we aren't aware of.

While we are to pray, and prayer is answered, most people do realize that it's often the case that what we thought we should have wouldn't be right for us after all, or that the present isn't the time when we should have it, etc. We do have to "let God be God," as the expression goes.

That is incredibly damaging theology that has led to children dying because their parents refused to seek modern medical treatment that could have saved them. It also led to miserable elderly people who waited on God to send them a spouse their entire life without doing much to seek one. Or material goods, a job and other things that they could have obtained if they hadn't sat and waited on God.

This is all part of the package of consequences that befell humanity as a result of Adam's sin. None of it would have occurred, no death at all would be our fate, if that Original Sin of our first parents had not happened. And of course, we wouldn't need a Savior if that were the situation. So instead, we are mortal with all the failings of physical flesh, at least for awhile.

How does that makes any sense? It doesn't. Some people were tricked into disobeying God thousands of years ago, so we all live incredibly unequal lifespans because of that. Even though we didn't ask to be born, nor consent to being part of this world or to abide by these rules.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

He taught His disciples how to heal the sick. But later the church changed it.

Why would He allow the initial people who changed it to do so, knowing that it would impact billions of people in the future?

Why atheists don't live long I don't know.

That's not what I asked. I asked why some atheists are given long lives with plenty of opportunities to seek and find God, while others die in their youth with a lot less time and opportunities to seek and find God.

Who prays nowadays?

I did. For years. And yes, it did have some results, but man, were they a lot fewer than I expected!

It's like if you were a starving homeless person (not you, I'm saying this in general) and you were begging someone for some food and they give you a small slice of pizza and then stopped talking to you. I mean, sure, you're grateful for it, but you're not full and now you're both hungry and frustrated.

 

[Messy]

Why would He allow the initial people who changed it to do so, knowing that it would impact billions of people in the future?


That's not what I asked. I asked why some atheists are given long lives with plenty of opportunities to seek and find God, while others die in their youth with a lot less time and opportunities to seek and find God.


I did. For years. And yes, it did have some results, but man, were they a lot fewer than I expected!

It's like if you were a starving homeless person (not you, I'm saying this in general) and you were begging someone for some food and they give you a small slice of pizza and then stopped talking to you. I mean, sure, you're grateful for it, but you're not full and now you're both hungry and frustrated.

God is not in charge here on earth yet. People have free will and can preach what they want. I have prayed for former atheists who got very old and got saved. Maybe the others had noone who prayed for them. You needed help. If you are sick, go to the elders, says James. So many elders don't even pray for the sick or they say God wants you to be sick. We had one guy in Holland, who now died, who prayed for everyone from any church, because their elders or reverends, pastors wouldn't do it. The creation waits for the sons of God to stand up and heal the sick. God gave Thorben Sondergaard to heal ppl, teach em about it and what do they do? They falsely accuse him and throw him in prison.

 

[Albion]

So were the instructions for the tabernacle. What is your point?

One more time...According to Scripture, God inspired men of his choice to convey His revelation to mankind, and that is the origin of Holy Scripture. He did not speak to them in our language with them simply putting it down verbatim as they heard it, word for word.

God could make detailed instructions for the tabernacle survive in a book for 3000 years, He could do the same thing for any information He wanted us to have.

"Could. Could. Could. Why not?"

There are certain things of God that we mortals, not being anywhere close to intellectual equals (!) with the Almighty, understand only to the degree that the most ordinary of humans are competent to understand it. The whole Bible story records the acts of a superior being dealing with his creatures in a way we would otherwise call "dumbed down" so that we'd get the point.

Did God have to be born in a manger? Well, no. Did Jesus need to put mud on a blind man's eyes in order to have him see again? Well, no. Did God need to die on a cross in order to forgive mankind's sins? Well, no. So why did he DO it that way? God can do whatever he wants merely by an act of his will.

Constantly asking why God didn't do everything just the way Lucian would have done it is a waste of time, or worse, and the sooner you get over it the better your spiritual life will be.