What was it historically that set Catholics down the path of believing Mary stayed a virgin her whole life?

[Andrew]

I don’t know what his problem is with fonts. Obviously they make modern printings of old documents in today’s English.

I mean I just don't have an authentic vatican latin original handy to snap pictures at or else I would have posted those instead

 

[Andrew]

Visit my thread entitled, James, "the brother of the Lord," where I address Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3.

There are those who either teach Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of [St.] Joseph from a marriage prior to his with the Virgin Mary, and thus Jesus's stepbrothers, or were Jesus's half-brothers through His Mother, merely because they are called His "brother(s):"

"...his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude" (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)
"...James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

However, the word "brother" (ἀδελφός [adelphos]) has a range of meanings, e.g., "brother," "half-brother," "stepbrother," "cousin," "uncle," "nephew," "fellow believer," "fellow countryman," etc. Is there evidence the meanings "stepbrother" or "half-brother" applies in the aforementioned verses? The answer lies in identifying who "James the brother of the Lord" was and in Gal. 1:19 it is indicated he was an apostle:

"But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord" (Gal. 1:19)

Of the twelve apostles, two shared the name "James:"

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Zebedee was not the son of [St.] Joseph, his only brother was Apostle John (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10, Ac. 12:1-2), and his mother is referred to only as "the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 20:20;27:56), and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19 were not the same:

Apostle James, son of Zebedee. (Matt. 4:21, Mk. 1:19;3:17;10:35, Lk. 5:10)
Apostle James, son of Alphaeus. (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13)

Apostle James of Alphaeus was not the son of [St.] Joseph, but he was the brother of [Apostle] Jude (Thaddeus) and Joseph (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13), which corresponds with Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3: brothers Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus), and Jd. 1:1: Jude, brother of James, and thus it is unobjectionable this apostle-James and "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, were the same. Is there evidence linking Simon's, Joseph's, James's, and Jude's (Thaddeus) father, Alphaeus, and Jesus's Mother, Mary? No, but there is evidence the mother of the four "brothers" of Jesus was also named "Mary:"

Mary, mother of James. (Mk. 16:1)

Mary of James. (Lk. 24:10)

Mary, mother of James and Joseph. (Matt. 27:56)

Mary, mother of James the Less and Joseph. (Mk. 15:40)

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Testimonies of Early Church Fathers

Apostolic Father Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60–130 AD), who was a disciple of Apostle John, relates in his Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord the following: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph."

[St.] Jerome (c. 347–420 CE) relates in his De Viris Illustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men) and De perpetua uirginitate beatae Mariae adversus Heluidium (Against Helvidius, on the Perpetual Virginity of the Virgin Mary), "Mary the mother of James the Less" (Mk. 15:40), and "Mary the wife of Cleophas/Clopas" (Jn. 19:25), were the same.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340 AD) relates in his Church History (Book III, ch. 11) it is said a man named "Clopas" had a son named "Symeon" (Simon), and that the latter was Jesus's cousin, for Hegesippus records Clopas was the brother of [St.] Joseph.

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 1), James, "the brother of the Lord," was surnamed "the Just," and first to be made Bishop of Jerusalem. He added: "Paul also makes mention of the same James the Just, where he writes, 'Other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.'" (Gal. 1:19)

Eusebius relates in his Church History (Book II, ch. 23) the following: "But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows: 'James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called 'the Just' by all from the time of our Savior to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of 'James.''"

As preserved by Eusebius in Church History (Book II, ch. 1), Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) relates in his Hypotyposes (Book VII) James the Just was chosen to be Bishop of Jerusalem and that there were only two apostle-Jameses: "But there were two Jameses: one called "the Just," who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded." The former, James "the Just," a.k.a. James "the brother of the Lord," could have only been Apostle James of Alphaeus, because the latter was Apostle James of Zebedee, brother to Apostle John of Zebedee: "And at the same time, Herod the king stretched forth his hands, to afflict some of the church. And he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword." (Act. 12:1-2)

—
In summary, the names and verses from scripture, and the testimonies of early Church Fathers I cited, sourced, and linked together, are strong evidence to support "James" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, "James the brother of the Lord," "James the Less," "James the Just," "James the Bishop of Jerusalem," and "Apostle James of Alphaeus" were the same, and that he, Simon, Joseph, and Jude (Thaddeus) were sons of Alphaeus (Cleophas/Clopas), [St.] Joseph's brother, and Mary (the wife of Cleophas/Clopas), the sister-in-law of Jesus's Mother, Mary. Therefore, the meanings "stepbrother" and "half-brother" of the word "brother(s)" do not apply to Jesus in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 1:19, rather "kinsman," specifically cousins.

This disproves the teaching that states Simon, Joseph, James, and Jude (Thaddeus) were Jesus's stepbrothers through [St.] Joseph, and undermines the teaching they were Jesus's half-siblings through His Mother, Mary.

†​

 

[Lamb]

Do you have catechism about ever virgin?

It's right there in my quote.

 

[Origen]

I mean I just don't have an authentic vatican latin original handy to snap pictures at or else I would have posted those instead

What good would it do anyway? I doubt it would change anything at all.

 

[Josiah]

The Protestants I know are not obsessed with Mary.

Nathan, my brother...


So, I wonder.... just wonder.... because I've been involved in forums like CH for over 20 years... and in my experience, this "Mary and Sex" issue is brought up almost exclusively by "Evangelicals" (especially those in the USA). I can hardly remember any Catholic ever bringing it up. Indeed, in my early days, when I was still Catholic and active at Catholic sites, this never came up. It seems it's American "Evangelicals" who seem quite obsessed with Mary and sex.


But you offered nothing in Scripture that states Mary had lotsa sex and kids. I agree, it ALSO never states the opposite but that doesn't make the very new, modern theory of "Evangelical" Protestants (at least many in the USA, Canada and Australia) to be correct, only that it TOO is not stated in Scripture.

But Catholics ....

None of that has ANYTHING to do with the issue at hand.

None of that proves that Mary had lotsa sex and kids.

None of that affirms why a few modern Protestants must be insistent about Mary's sex life while they rebuke Catholics for (in their opinion) being insistent about Mary's sex life.


You proved the Bible is silent on this issue. Why aren't you?

Since you rebuke most Christians for theorizing on this issue, why are you?



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[Josiah]

"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"
Matthew 13:55
KJV

Mark says brothers and sisters...

"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him"
Mark 6:3


Jesus addresses those in disbelief in the synagogues as representing the fellow countrymen, kin and household of a prophet whom they find unworthy, referring to himself ...

"But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house"
Mark 6:4

Andrew, my brother....


It is not proper to base dogmas on a POSSIBLE implication of a MODERN ENGLISH word....


As you know well, the words "brother" and "sister" don't appear in the Bible (ONLY in some ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS of such). There's a very good reason for this: English didn't exist in the 1400 BC - 100 AD time frame for formation of Scripture. I agree with you, the MOST COMMON meaning if "brother" in English is the sharing of at least one parent (could be father, could be mother - consider that, my brother). In 21st Century USA anyway. But the Bible was not written in 21st Century USA in English, was it? Now, a TRANSLATOR may use common, modern words - but rarely is this perfect, the modern word in which things are translated will - often - not be exactly the same in meaning, connotation and implications. This is why your pastor doesn't use a translation. This is why your pastor is fluent in biblical Hebrew and koine Greek. This is why theologicans never use any translation.... this is why no inter-denominational discussion of differences in teaching use any translation. Ever heard the proverb: "Something got lost in the translation" and of course it's equally possible that something got added in the translation.


Brother, the word (adelphos) is a very broad term. It was often used when two males shared the SAME TWO biological parents.... when they shared the same MALE biological or legal parent (consider that, my brother), when they shared the same FEMALE biological or legal parent... but also when they shared NEITHER biological or legal parent - as in a cousin, any male relative. Fellow (!) residents of a village often called each other "brothers" Soldiers often called each other "brothers." Christians often called each other "brothers."


Let's see how the word is used in the NT...
Prove that in each case, "Brother" means "share the same biological mother"

In each case below, the word is the Greek "adelphos"

Matthew 12:49-50

Matthew 5:22-24

Matthew 7:3-5

Matthew 18:15, 21, 35

Acts 22:13

1 Corinthians 1:1

1 Corinthians 5:11

1 Corinthians 8:11,13

1 Corinthians 16:12

2 Corinthians 1:1

2 Corinthians 2:13

Ephesians 6;21

Philippians 2:25

Philemon 16

1 Peter 3:12

2 Peter 3:15

Revelation 1:19


Brother, there are many, many more. In all the above, is the meaning obviously, "share the same biological mother?" Indeed, this word is very common in the NT and very, very rarely does it apply to people who share ANY biological parent. In secular Greek, soldiers called each other "brother." The word adelphos CAN mean "shares the same biological mother" but FAR MORE OFTEN in koine Greek (and in the Bible) it does not indicate sharing either parent. You cannot prove Mary had lotsa sex and kids just because there are persons called "adelphos" of Jesus. Nope. It's a baseless apologetic.

Now, one could FEEL that the context suggests that there is a shared parent (although there's ZERO reason to theorize that shared parent MUST be the mother and not the father). But the text does not say that. Indeed, my brother, the verse you note seems to make quite a point that MARY is the mother of JESUS, the ONLY child assigned to Mary is Jesus. The rest are ONLY called "brothers" and "sisters" of Jesus - why doesn't the verse include them with Jesus as the child of Mary? Perhaps because they were not. But again, brother, the Bible does NOT say these are children of Mary. There is no verse that states, "Mary had lotsa sex and kids."






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