What NOT to Do in Church

[Albion]

Sure, except what we should do is be pleasing to God rather than pleasing to other people, no?

I know that you've tried to make that motive be the only reason people would dress appropriately for church, but I don't believe that anyone else here has suggested wearing decent attire simply to impress other worshippers. I certainly haven't.

 

[Josiah]

WIth respect, you're still talking about what is acceptable to other people. It's natural for people to gravitate to others who are at least somewhat like them but if the church is supposed to be reaching out to all we can't be creating artificial barriers that keep people away, especially the most needy.

The exclusive members-only club might insist that you don't get in unless you're wearing formal evening dress. If a church has an overt dress code and won't accept people who don't meet it, or an implied dress code where people who don't meet it are either subject to "the look" from all corners or are simply left to realise that they are in the wrong place, what kind of message does that send about the Jesus we claim loved everybody enough to die for them? Can we really afford to let people come into a church, listen to a message that "God loves all his creation" but, through rejecting them based on the clothes they wear, give them the clear message that we're called to love everyone except people like them?

What Jesus said about "when you did it not unto the least of these" doesn't sit very well in my mind with expecting people to adhere to a dress code to gather to worship him.

With respect. I think it is entirely about respect.

Let me use this non-church illustration: You visit the home of a co-worker for dinner. You enter the home and see a line of shoes and notice that your host and hostess aren't wearing shoes. The tradition in that home is to remove your shoes at the door. What do you do? Think: God loves shoes and it's up to ME if I want to wear shoes or not? Or do you honor the custom of the home and remove your shoes? Get my point? Another non-church illustration: Around here, especially near the beach, often restaurants etc. will have a sign: Shirt and shoes required (or conversely, "No shirt, no shoes - no problem" LOL). Let's say it's a nice dinner restaurant. Now, it's probably true that God has no problem with guys being shirtless (probably no problem with gals being shirtless, lol) and God seems to have made feet for walking. So, do you go in and sit down shirtless and shoeless? Get my point? Let's say your daughter is getting married and you are walking her down the aisle. Now, you want to wear your cut off jeans, a tank top with "Bud Lite" on it, and flip flops. It may well be God would be okay with that, I admit. But your daughter wants you to go along with the custom and everyone else in the wedding party and wear a tux. What would you do? Why?

I'm not talking about a "dress code" per se (although all churches have them.... try showing up nude and see what happens!). I'm not talking about the church perspective, I'm talking about our perspective. I think it has everything to do with respect for others, about not giving offensive to others (the Bible has some things to say about that), about not being self-centered but other-centered. As best we can. The point of this thread is not what CHURCHES shouldn't do but what I shouldn't do.



My half cent....



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

I agree with what you've written there Josiah, but it strikes me that we have one other consideration. As we know, there are "Cowboy churches" and "Biker" churches;" and apparently our friend here belongs to a church that takes cut-offs along with Bud Lite tee shirts for granted.

Well, we still think doing that is inappropriate when approaching God as part of the assembly. However, if the church in question doesn't actually worship (according to traditional standards) but it is just a gathering for a religious concert (as I have called them) or to hear a lecture about something in the Bible....

There's definitely not any belief in the Real Presence and probably not Communion at all (or only once in a quarter). So it is really a different sort of experience, and worship, as we have read, is exclusively a matter of what's in ones heart or in how you live life.

 

[psalms 91]

Ah the old there has to be a formula and something that is followed in order to qualify, I think not, if it isnt open to the leading of the spirit and being led by God then I question what it really is

 

[Albion]

Is this still the What not to do in Church thread?

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Is this still the What not to do in Church thread?

Don't cuss in German if there's a chance that somebody can understand what you're saying.

 

[tango]

I know that you've tried to make that motive be the only reason people would dress appropriately for church, but I don't believe that anyone else here has suggested wearing decent attire simply to impress other worshippers. I certainly haven't.

So why else would a church impose a dress code?

If you choose to dress in an outfit that would cost a year's wages for someone else, have at it. If you choose to dress in cut off jeans and a T-shirt, have at it. We're not really talking about what you choose to do in church, my issue is when one group of people takes it upon themselves to decide what other people are expected to wear.

When God sees our hearts above all else, what is the benefit of imposing a dress code?

 

[Albion]

So why else would a church impose a dress code?...When God sees our hearts above all else, what is the benefit of imposing a dress code?

?? I didn't say anything about a church imposing a dress code and I don't remember anyone else doing so, either. I've never belonged to a church that did. If there is anything more to be said about the real topic of this thread, however, I would of course be willing to participate.

 

[tango]

With respect. I think it is entirely about respect.

Let me use this non-church illustration: You visit the home of a co-worker for dinner. You enter the home and see a line of shoes and notice that your host and hostess aren't wearing shoes. The tradition in that home is to remove your shoes at the door. What do you do? Think: God loves shoes and it's up to ME if I want to wear shoes or not? Or do you honor the custom of the home and remove your shoes? Get my point? Another non-church illustration: Around here, especially near the beach, often restaurants etc. will have a sign: Shirt and shoes required (or conversely, "No shirt, no shoes - no problem" LOL). Let's say it's a nice dinner restaurant. Now, it's probably true that God has no problem with guys being shirtless (probably no problem with gals being shirtless, lol) and God seems to have made feet for walking. So, do you go in and sit down shirtless and shoeless? Get my point? Let's say your daughter is getting married and you are walking her down the aisle. Now, you want to wear your cut off jeans, a tank top with "Bud Lite" on it, and flip flops. It may well be God would be okay with that, I admit. But your daughter wants you to go along with the custom and everyone else in the wedding party and wear a tux. What would you do? Why?

I'm not talking about a "dress code" per se (although all churches have them.... try showing up nude and see what happens!). I'm not talking about the church perspective, I'm talking about our perspective. I think it has everything to do with respect for others, about not giving offensive to others (the Bible has some things to say about that), about not being self-centered but other-centered. As best we can. The point of this thread is not what CHURCHES shouldn't do but what I shouldn't do.

My half cent....
- Josiah

Your views are worth more than half a cent, even if I don't agree with them

The analogies about non-church situations fall down simply because the nature of the visit is so very different.

If I come to your house for dinner then I would expect to abide by some kind of standards that you get to determine because it's your house. If you just had an expensive carpet put down and would rather I took off my hobnailed boots that's entirely your call - if I decided I Ioved by hobnailed boots and didn't want to take them off you would be free to revoke the invitation to inner. The other aspect is that you don't see me when I'm in the shower or sitting in the bathroom wishing I hadn't eaten those dodgy oysters. Likewise if I go to a fancy restaurant the owner gets to decide what, if any, dress code is in place.

If the church is God's house then God gets to decide the conditions of entry. I don't see anything in Scripture (at least not in the NT) that says we have to dress a certain way or even abide by arbitrary standards set up by someone else. When Jesus hung out with those the religious establishment considered undesirable and said that the religious establishment was undesirable to him (in all sorts of eloquent terms) I think that helps highlight the case that Jesus would rather have the sinner who knelt and prayed "God have mercy on me" than the man who stood up proudly and said "Thankyou God that I am not like this man here".

If you host a dinner party at your house it's not for me to decide that someone else isn't welcome because they aren't dressed in a way that I consider appropriate. If I decide to take my shoes off I don't get to insist that other guests also remove their shoes, however much I might think your carpet warrants protection from shoes. Hence, if I'm visiting God's house why does someone else get to decide that my presence is unacceptable because they don't consider my outfit to be appropriate attire? It's little more than judging based on external appearance.

I agree that we shouldn't cause others to stumble (hence turning up nude would be inappropriate, Scripturally speaking) but at the same time we need to be careful to differentiate between the truly weaker brother and the controlling brother. If someone decides they find it hugely offensive that someone should turn up on a Sunday morning wearing anything less than full morning dress, what should be done about it? Should every member of that church, regardless of financial means, be expected to acquire a full morning suit so as not to offend the one person? What if someone else decides they find it hugely offensive that people should dress up so extravagantly when people in their community don't have enough to eat? Genuine offense is one thing (hence another strike against showing up nude) but I would venture to say that if someone's faith is so weak that they could stumble over someone else wearing jeans to worship God their faith is probably misplaced anyway.

Given what Jesus said about whitewashed sepuchlres I'd hazard a guess that God would rather see people dressed in rags with penitent hearts, than dressed in the finest clothes money can buy with defiant hearts.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's polite not to interrupt the person presiding during prayers that he leads.

 

[Josiah]

Your views are worth more than half a cent, even if I don't agree with them

The analogies about non-church situations fall down simply because the nature of the visit is so very different.

If I come to your house for dinner then I would expect to abide by some kind of standards that you get to determine because it's your house. If you just had an expensive carpet put down and would rather I took off my hobnailed boots that's entirely your call - if I decided I Ioved by hobnailed boots and didn't want to take them off you would be free to revoke the invitation to inner. The other aspect is that you don't see me when I'm in the shower or sitting in the bathroom wishing I hadn't eaten those dodgy oysters. Likewise if I go to a fancy restaurant the owner gets to decide what, if any, dress code is in place.

If the church is God's house then God gets to decide the conditions of entry. I don't see anything in Scripture (at least not in the NT) that says we have to dress a certain way or even abide by arbitrary standards set up by someone else. When Jesus hung out with those the religious establishment considered undesirable and said that the religious establishment was undesirable to him (in all sorts of eloquent terms) I think that helps highlight the case that Jesus would rather have the sinner who knelt and prayed "God have mercy on me" than the man who stood up proudly and said "Thankyou God that I am not like this man here".

If you host a dinner party at your house it's not for me to decide that someone else isn't welcome because they aren't dressed in a way that I consider appropriate. If I decide to take my shoes off I don't get to insist that other guests also remove their shoes, however much I might think your carpet warrants protection from shoes. Hence, if I'm visiting God's house why does someone else get to decide that my presence is unacceptable because they don't consider my outfit to be appropriate attire? It's little more than judging based on external appearance.

I agree that we shouldn't cause others to stumble (hence turning up nude would be inappropriate, Scripturally speaking) but at the same time we need to be careful to differentiate between the truly weaker brother and the controlling brother. If someone decides they find it hugely offensive that someone should turn up on a Sunday morning wearing anything less than full morning dress, what should be done about it? Should every member of that church, regardless of financial means, be expected to acquire a full morning suit so as not to offend the one person? What if someone else decides they find it hugely offensive that people should dress up so extravagantly when people in their community don't have enough to eat? Genuine offense is one thing (hence another strike against showing up nude) but I would venture to say that if someone's faith is so weak that they could stumble over someone else wearing jeans to worship God their faith is probably misplaced anyway.

Given what Jesus said about whitewashed sepuchlres I'd hazard a guess that God would rather see people dressed in rags with penitent hearts, than dressed in the finest clothes money can buy with defiant hearts.

Understood, but friend, the question/issue of this thread is not what churches should do, it's what I should do.

And again, I'm guessing your church DOES have a dress code. It may be loose, it may be unannounced (they ususally are) but it DOES have a dress code. Again, try showing up nude or in your boxers or tidy whities as the case may be, and you'll likely discover it has a dress code - and may even enforce it with the local police, lol. But this thread has nothing to do with whether churches should or should not allow nude people during worship. It's about what I should do in church.

And it's not about legalism imposed by the host, it's about respect displayed by the individual who chooses to go there.

 

[Albion]

We ought to have a contest about what the person pictured here is thinking as he is staring at the host. He looks quizzical, doesn't he?


Possibly--

"I thought I told them to order the smaller size."

 

[MoreCoffee]

We ought to have a contest about what the person pictured here is thinking as he is staring at the host. He looks quizzical, doesn't he?


Possibly--

"I thought I told them to order the smaller size."

He may have been thinking that a bigger one would be better

 

[Albion]

Could be.

 

[tango]

Understood, but friend, the question/issue of this thread is not what churches should do, it's what I should do.

And again, I'm guessing your church DOES have a dress code. It may be loose, it may be unannounced (they ususally are) but it DOES have a dress code. Again, try showing up nude or in your boxers or tidy whities as the case may be, and you'll likely discover it has a dress code - and may even enforce it with the local police, lol. But this thread has nothing to do with whether churches should or should not allow nude people during worship. It's about what I should do in church.

And it's not about legalism imposed by the host, it's about respect displayed by the individual who chooses to go there.

As for what I should do, I still don't see why, aside from basic decency (i.e. not showing up nude or wearing nothing but boxer shorts or some such), what I should do involves checking to see whether the church expects people to dress a certain way. Your post #3 suggests we should call ahead and ask what is appropriate. I would say that I can decide for myself what is appropriate and, aside from basic levels of decency (which would be enforced by the police, if it proved necessary) nobody has any business keeping others out of God's house over disagreements relating to something as trivial as dress sense. Just to throw a random data point in there, my jeans are clean and fit me comfortably while my suit pants, although clean and well pressed, don't fit me as well (it's been a while since I wore a suit regularly, and I gained some weight in the meantime) and let's just say they leave very little doubt as to my gender. I'm not going to go out and buy a new outfit just because someone considers it inappropriate to wear jeans to church and, based on my available wardrobe it would be more appropriate for me to wear clean jeans than to pour myself into my suit.

Perhaps one visitor can afford to wear a $10,000 suit with a $20,000 watch and fit right in. Perhaps the next person who shows up in tatty jeans and worn sneakers has made more of an effort than it first appears because he has taken the time to find the only pair of jeans he owns that don't have holes in them. If he called ahead and was told that the church expected slacks and a collared shirt they might as well have told him "poor people like aren't welcome here". Hence I can't help thinking what we should do includes challenging church policies/standards/codes/whatever that do effectively exclude "the least of these" from fellowship.

As a Christian I know that, at a push, I can worship God anywhere and at any time. If I feel a church is excluding me, actively or passively, I know I can continue with my Christian walk without ever darkening their door. But what of the person who sees the church in town and wants to know more about this mysterious Jesus dude who he heard about on the radio the other day? He walks in, is obviously judged for nothing more than his lack of finances, and probably walks out of the door wanting nothing to do with such a judgmental group. How does this show the love of Christ? How does it further the call to "go into the world and preach the gospel" if those who accept the gospel are promptly rejected by the local clique for not fitting right in on day one?

Given the potential consequences of simply reading arbitrary expectations and quietly going along with them, I can't help wondering whether we should regard it as a duty to encourage churches to welcome everyone, even those who don't maintain an arbitrary standard of dress.

On a related note, if you believe (as your post #3 suggests) that you should call ahead to find what is expected, how far would you allow the church to dictate the way you present yourself? We can discuss our own opinions of what it means to be "presentable" all day but as soon as we allow a church to make those decisions for us, where would you draw the line?

 

[psalms 91]

Bottom line is that if a certain style of dress is desired at church thebn those who show up and dont dress that way will face judgemeny and spoken or unspoken thta will be picked up on and they probably wont be back.

 

[Lamb]

Bottom line is that if a certain style of dress is desired at church thebn those who show up and dont dress that way will face judgemeny and spoken or unspoken thta will be picked up on and they probably wont be back.

People judge the way others look at a WalMart. It's going to happen wherever we go

 

[psalms 91]

church should not be one of the places

 

[Josiah]

As for what I should do, I still don't see why, aside from basic decency (i.e. not showing up nude or wearing nothing but boxer shorts or some such), what I should do involves checking to see whether the church expects people to dress a certain way.

I don't think we are significantly different in our view here.... I think you've already "surrendered" the point that a worshipper should be able to wear whatever he/she wants.



The issue becomes "decent." One may think that "decent" means (for a 50 year old man): cut off jean shorts and a tank top with "Bud Lite" on it, and rubber floppy sandals. Hey, won't get you arrested, might be clean, covers all that the law typically requires.... but is it appropriate in all situations? Is it RESPECTFUL? Is it solely the responsibility of others to like WHATEVER I choose, I having no responsibility? Does respect go only one way?

CH is a community that invites all. But we have rules, and we ask all to read and understand those before they enter/post. Why? If we should just accept whatever - the responsibility of respect goes only one way, all accepting WHATEVER some individual thinks wants - then why have rules? On what basis can we tell an individual "that's inappropriate, that's disrespectful?" See my point?

See, MY point is that if you go to the house of your co-worker for dinner, and THEIR custom is that you remove your shoes upon entering the house, IMO you should remove your shoes. Whether it's what YOU want or not. You don't have to enter their home, there are other places to eat, you should show basic respect and courtesy. I think when you go to a wedding, you should wear different clothes than you might to go swimming or go to the gym or maybe sleep in - NOT because you like to wear such (that's quite irrelevant) but because you respect the bride and groom, you respect marriage and the wedding ceremony, you respect the people at the wedding. It's MORE than just showing up with all the private parts covered so as not to violate some local laws, it's RESPECTING others. It's accepting everything is not about ME and what I want..... we live with others and that suggests respecting others.

Jesus talked about not giving offense. If I went to an orthodox Jewish home for dinner and I offer to bring something, I would not bring pork chops (LOL) even though I like 'em and I think it's okay to eat them. It's being disrespectful, even offensive. If I'm giving a gift to a recovering alcoholic , I would not give him a bottle of Glenlivit for Christmas (even though I love the stuff). Paul notes we should not use our liberty to offend, to be rude, to be disrespectful. I would not show up as the best man at a wedding wearing shorts and a tank top - even if they are clean and cover all private parts. It's called being rude, disrespectful.... I would be a LOT more comfortable than wearing a tux and those terrible hard shoes but I would never do it. I would ask the groom what I am requested to wear. And I certainly would not purposely offend just because I think what I want is all that matters and if they don't like it, that's totally THEIR problem.

My wife is a public school teacher. The school district has a dress code - for students AND for staff. Why? Not for the great majority of kids or teachers (the likes of you) but for those who don't know or don't care what is appropriate.... you take the "I'LL decide what to wear - and it's totally EVERYONE ELSE's responsibiity to respect me, I have zero responsibility to respect them.

Your post #3 suggests we should call ahead and ask what is appropriate. I would say that I can decide for myself what is appropriate

... and in YOUR case, that would be okay, I'm sure.

But then CH doesn't have rules for you. We don't ask people to abide by the customs and polities of THIS site because we know no one needs to know this.... but because we know some do. When someone clearly violates our custom/polities/expectations, we don't say "My bad - it's totally YOUR choice and decision as to what's appropriate and what is not."

aside from basic levels of decency (which would be enforced by the police, if it proved necessary) nobody has any business keeping others out of God's house over disagreements relating to something as trivial as dress sense.

Again, the issue I'm addressing has NOTHING to do with what churches should or should not do, it's about what I should or should not do.

I agree that churches should respect people, I just don't think that's totally one way. I think CH (as a community) should respect individual posters - I just don't think it's TOTALLY one way. Follow? While it's an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT POINT, I think actually churches are doing guests a favor when they explain how things are in that church.... what the service is like, what the community policy is, etc. And now with virtually all churches having websites, that's very easy to do. It's not unlike CH posting it's rules and polities so potential posters can read them BEFORE they sign up. And I think this includes what people wear. Frankly, I'd be disappointed if I showed up at a birthday party wearing a suit because I THOUGHT that was what everyone was going to wear only to find out it's a pool party and everyone gets thrown in the pool, lol (but I hope you are getting my point). When my company had a Christmas dinner/party last year, they stated in the invitation what dress is appropriate. I appreciated that. So did my wife. Now, friend, it's a different issue whether a church should say "Men must wear $5,000 Italian suits and women $5000 designer dresses." But you've already agreed churches DO insist all wear.... something.... and that it be "decent" (you just didn't want to say what is and is not "decent").

Perhaps one visitor can afford to wear a $10,000 suit with a $20,000 watch and fit right in.

... and they might NOT. MY point is respect..... not giving offense.... not being rude. MY point is that respect works TWO ways. It's is NOT everyone else's responsibility to accept MY preferences, customs, polities, etc. - and NONE of my responsibility to respect theirs. When we come into a community, the community matters - not just ME. It's not all about me.


There are things about my congregation that I'd prefer be different. But I'm not the only member, it's a community, a family, and it's much bigger than me. In respect for the family.... in respect for my brothers and sisters.... I will adapt where I can. Where there are MAJOR things, I can work "within the system" - respectfully - to see if I can bring about change (and I do that; elsewhere I can give examples) but I do so respecting the community, my brothers and sisters, and I accept I won't always "win" but that's okay, it's not all ME.

Kinda off topic, but I feel that the radical, uber-individualism that has come into society (including, sadly, the church) - with ENTIRE and EXCLUSIVE point of me, me, me - is not good. We need to recapture a sense of community, family, respect for our brothers and sisters (and yes, it works both ways). If I'm away on a Sunday, and I freely CHOOSE to be the guest in a Catholic Church, I don't think it's THEIR responsibility to do everything like Lutherans do, it's THEIR responsibility to do everything the way I prefer, THEIR responsibility to give me Communion (and change their theology as they do). It's not ALL about ME. I think I should be respectful of that community, family that we CHOOSE to associate with. Well, I hope you get my point.

Again, the Bible talks about not giving offense.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[tango]

I don't think we are significantly different in our view here.... I think you've already "surrendered" the point that a worshipper should be able to wear whatever he/she wants.

Perhaps, although I don't think I've ever questioned the point that an individual should be free to wear whatever s/he wants. Some people are more comfortable in a three-piece suit, others are more comfortable in baggy shorts and a T-shirt.

The issue becomes "decent." One may think that "decent" means (for a 50 year old man): cut off jean shorts and a tank top with "Bud Lite" on it, and rubber floppy sandals. Hey, won't get you arrested, might be clean, covers all that the law typically requires.... but is it appropriate in all situations? Is it RESPECTFUL? Is it solely the responsibility of others to like WHATEVER I choose, I having no responsibility? Does respect go only one way?

Where clothing is concerned, I really don't see it as anyone else's business what I wear, as long as I abide by basic concepts of decency (e.g. not showing up nude, or wearing clothes so badly torn I might as well be nude, etc).

CH is a community that invites all. But we have rules, and we ask all to read and understand those before they enter/post. Why? If we should just accept whatever - the responsibility of respect goes only one way, all accepting WHATEVER some individual thinks wants - then why have rules? On what basis can we tell an individual "that's inappropriate, that's disrespectful?" See my point?

Sure, we invite everybody and the rules primarily relate to how we interact with each other. I'm allowed to tell you why I think you are wrong but I'm not allowed to simply call you an idiot and move on. I might disagree with the things you write but I am expected to respect you. And likewise you are free to say why you think I am wrong but are not allowed to simply call me an idiot. Using this analogy we might say it's inappropriate to heckle the preacher during his sermon, it's disrespectful to clip your toenails during communion and so on.

See, MY point is that if you go to the house of your co-worker for dinner, and THEIR custom is that you remove your shoes upon entering the house, IMO you should remove your shoes. Whether it's what YOU want or not. You don't have to enter their home, there are other places to eat, you should show basic respect and courtesy. I think when you go to a wedding, you should wear different clothes than you might to go swimming or go to the gym or maybe sleep in - NOT because you like to wear such (that's quite irrelevant) but because you respect the bride and groom, you respect marriage and the wedding ceremony, you respect the people at the wedding. It's MORE than just showing up with all the private parts covered so as not to violate some local laws, it's RESPECTING others. It's accepting everything is not about ME and what I want..... we live with others and that suggests respecting others.

Sure, we respect the house rules of the house owner. In the same way when we enter the house of God we respect God's rules. If I show up to dinner at your house I may prefer to take my shoes off but I don't get to demand that other guests do the same if you are OK with people leaving shoes on. You might invite people to your wedding expecting they will dress smartly but you are not expected to invite all and sundry to the wedding and I'd hazard a guess that you wouldn't invite someone if you had serious concerns that they would show in in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. Coming into God's house is different because we have a specific mission to go out into the world and reach the lost, whether they be hedge fund managers or beggars who sleep in shop doorways.

Jesus talked about not giving offense. If I went to an orthodox Jewish home for dinner and I offer to bring something, I would not bring pork chops (LOL) even though I like 'em and I think it's okay to eat them. It's being disrespectful, even offensive. If I'm giving a gift to a recovering alcoholic , I would not give him a bottle of Glenlivit for Christmas (even though I love the stuff). Paul notes we should not use our liberty to offend, to be rude, to be disrespectful. I would not show up as the best man at a wedding wearing shorts and a tank top - even if they are clean and cover all private parts. It's called being rude, disrespectful.... I would be a LOT more comfortable than wearing a tux and those terrible hard shoes but I would never do it. I would ask the groom what I am requested to wear. And I certainly would not purposely offend just because I think what I want is all that matters and if they don't like it, that's totally THEIR problem.

My wife is a public school teacher. The school district has a dress code - for students AND for staff. Why? Not for the great majority of kids or teachers (the likes of you) but for those who don't know or don't care what is appropriate.... you take the "I'LL decide what to wear - and it's totally EVERYONE ELSE's responsibiity to respect me, I have zero responsibility to respect them.

... and in YOUR case, that would be okay, I'm sure.

But then CH doesn't have rules for you. We don't ask people to abide by the customs and polities of THIS site because we know no one needs to know this.... but because we know some do. When someone clearly violates our custom/polities/expectations, we don't say "My bad - it's totally YOUR choice and decision as to what's appropriate and what is not."

Again, the issue I'm addressing has NOTHING to do with what churches should or should not do, it's about what I should or should not do.

(trimmed to meet length requirements)

Kinda off topic, but I feel that the radical, uber-individualism that has come into society (including, sadly, the church) - with ENTIRE and EXCLUSIVE point of me, me, me - is not good. We need to recapture a sense of community, family, respect for our brothers and sisters (and yes, it works both ways). If I'm away on a Sunday, and I freely CHOOSE to be the guest in a Catholic Church, I don't think it's THEIR responsibility to do everything like Lutherans do, it's THEIR responsibility to do everything the way I prefer, THEIR responsibility to give me Communion (and change their theology as they do). It's not ALL about ME. I think I should be respectful of that community, family that we CHOOSE to associate with. Well, I hope you get my point.

Again, the Bible talks about not giving offense.

Sure, rules sometimes need to be put in place for the people who genuinely don't realise that showing up in clothes so badly torn they might as well be naked is inappropriate. As you say we don't need rules for people who can show a little respect, and there's a world of difference between expecting someone to "cover their bits" (for want of a better phrase) and expecting someone to wear a specific type of outfit (e.g. a button down shirt, or a tie, or whatever else). In the context of a party we host, or a private venue, or a place of employment, it's perfectly reasonable for a very specific standard. If a nightclub requires patrons to wear a collar and tie the choice is simple - comply with the code or go somewhere else. If you don't want to comply with the code you aren't allowed in and if for some reason you are unable to comply with the code it's not their responsibility to make it happen for you (although as a matter of business practice they may be willing to rent you a tie).

When we're talking about God's house and fulfilling our mission to reach out to the lost, to "do unto the least of these" how do man-made rules and regulations, whether explicitly defined and written down or merely understood between the existing members of the church, assist or undermine us in that mission? How should we handle the "working girl" who spent Saturday night walking the streets and wants to know if there really is any truth in what she heard about this Jesus guy? Of course we'd expect her to cover up rather than simply sitting in the pews dressed to sell herself but do we love her by offering her a shawl to cover herself, or by sending her away because she's dressed, well, like a street walker? I know this isn't a scenario that plays out every week in churches across the country but, however hypothetical it may be, if the way we would treat such a person is different to the way Jesus would treat them we need to consider what we are doing wrong - if we're not doing what Jesus would have done it's a safe bet to say we are the ones getting it wrong.

With any church tradition, with any church practice, I think we need to ask the question of whether it promotes unity within the body or merely creates arbitrary divisions. Does it foster a welcoming environment and closer fellowship more to have a policy such as "if you love the Lord Jesus and accept him as your Savior you are welcome to join us for communion", or a policy more like "you are welcome to take communion as long as you have been confirmed into this church, accepted our statement of faith, and have been approved by our priest - if you have not then you are not welcome to join us for communion"? What purpose is served by the latter policy, other than creating artificial divisions between groups of people and holding visitors and prospective new members at arm's length?

The ultimate question, cliched though it is, has to be "what would Jesus do?". Would Jesus create an arbitrary standard and expect people to adhere to it, or would he extend the invitation to "follow me" to anyone?