What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

BluePrints · Saturday at 7:14 PM

What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

How can a person know for certain?

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

What does the scripture say about the mankind flesh nature of Jesus?

Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom_1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5]

Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Can an unfallen 'human' nature without sin be subject to death? No.

- Flesh And Spirit of Jesus Christ Chart : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

BluePrints · Saturday at 7:15 PM

Jhn. 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; …”	Jhn. 3:6 “… and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
FLESH (εν σαρκι) OF JESUS (sinful) (condemned)	SPIRIT (MIND / HEART) OF JESUS (sinless) (justified)
He came in the likeness (Romans 8:3) (“likeness”, see Philippians 2:7; Romans 6:5) of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3) and “condemned sin in the flesh”, as He committed no sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:8-12).	Jesus was born of the “Holy Ghost” (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35)
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (Hebrews 2:16) [Heavenly angelic flesh nature (1 Cor. 15:38-41; Jud. 1:7; Mat. 25:31) is unfallen, “holy”]	“... This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:17, 17:5; Mark 1:11; 2 Peter 1:17)
“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;” (Romans 1:3)	“... I do always those things that please him. (John 8:29) [see Isaiah 58:13; sabbath keeping is pleasing to the Father]
“son of David, the son of Abraham” (Matthew 1:1-18) [Flesh Lineage from fallen Abraham, and born of Mary, fallen woman; Matthew 1:16]	“Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.” (John 8:49)
“[son of] Adam” (Luke 3:23-38) [Flesh Lineage from fallen Adam]	“... I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” (Galatians 4:4)	“The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” (Isaiah 42:21)
“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1)	“Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.” (Matthew 12:18)
“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.” (Hebrews 2:17)	“That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.” (Isaiah 44:28)
“And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us ...” (John 1:14)	Jesus was that “holy thing” (Luke 1:35)
“God manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16)	“lamb shall be without blemish” (Exodus 12:5)
“... of the fruit of his [David’s] loins, according to the flesh ...” (Acts 2:30)	an “holy child” (Acts 4:27,30)
“in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren” (Hebrews 2:17)	“For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.” (Matthew 27:18)
“... to every seed his own body ...” (1 Corinthians 15:38)	“Why, what evil hath he done?” (Matthew 27:23)
“... having crucified the flesh ...” (Galatians 5:24)	“The said Pilate “I find no fault in this man.” (Luke 23:4)
“... nailing it to His cross.” (Colossians 2:4)	“in him is no sin.” (1 John 3:5)
“Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Hebrews 10:5)	“[who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners” (Hebrews 7:26)
“as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same” (Hebrews 2:14)	“Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.” (John 9:31)
“was in all points tempted like as [we ...” (Hebrews 4:15)	“I find in him no fault [at all].” (John 18:38)
“In the body of His flesh through death ...” (Colossians 1:22)	“I find no fault in him.” (John 19:6)
“... being put to death in the flesh ...” (1 Peter 3:18)	“who knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
“... new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;” (Hebrews 10:20)	“this man hath done nothing amiss.” (Luke 23:41)
“Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.” (Psalms 40:6)	“what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him” (Luke 23:22)
David acknowledges his flesh heritage in the Psalms 51 “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalms 51:5) [Jesus is called the “son of David”, the “son of Abraham”]	“Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:” (Luke 23:14)

BluePrints · Saturday at 7:15 PM

“... by the body of Christ ...” (Romans 7:4) [we are dead]	“the innocent blood” (Matthew 27:4)
“... members of His body, and of His flesh, and of His bones.” (Ephesians 5:30)	“Have thou nothing to do with that just man” (Matthew 27:19)
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24)	“I am innocent of the blood of this just person” (Matthew 27:24)
“... in the days of His flesh ...” (Hebrews 5:7)	“I have kept my Father’s commandments” (John 15:10)
“Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.” (2 Corinthians 5:16)	“lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him.” (Luke 23:15)
“Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” (Romans 9:5)	“But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none.” (Matthew 26:60)
“made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:7)	“Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.” (Luke 23:47)
“... Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Romans 6:6)	“I find no fault in him.” (John 19:4)
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)	“the obedience of one” (Romans 5:19)
“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” (1 John 4:2)	“without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)	“Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:22)
“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” (2 John 1:7)	“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God.” (Hebrews 9:4)
... there are many “... not discerning the Lord's body.” (1 Corinthians 11:29)	“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19)
“... my flesh shall rest in hope ...” (Acts 2:26)	“I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.” (Psalms 40:8)
“... his soul [being/person] was not left in the grave, neither his flesh did see corruption ...” (Acts 2:31)	“... A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master ...” (Malachi 1:6)
“Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” (Philippians 3:21)	Jesus was in the same likeness of sinful flesh as we, yet living without sin, never having sinned, never once transgressed the Holy Law of God; Jesus showed that with God there is no excuse for sin and thus “... condemned sin in the flesh.” (Romans 8:3)
“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].” (Hebrews 10:10)	Because Christ Jesus was victorious in the same fallen “flesh”, so too can we, by the Holy Spirit, and “overcome” “even as” He “overcame” (Revelation 3:21)
“... our hands have handled, of the Word of life.” (1 John 1:1)	“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” (1 John 3:3)
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)	To be born with sinful flesh is not to be born a transgressor/sinner. To transgress God’s Law (1 Jhn. 3:4; Rom. 7:7; Jam. 2:8-12) is to be a sinner, not born with sinful flesh. The flesh (sinful) Jesus came with is important to the Everlasting Gospel (Gen. 3:15; Rev. 14:6-7, &c.), and how He saves us from sin (Mat. 1:21; not in it). There is a system of religion (spirit of Antichrist) on earth which teaches that Jesus could not sin (“Impeccability”), and that He was born in unfallen flesh of Mary (“Immaculate Conception”) because it teaches that to be born with fallen flesh is to automatically be a ‘sinner’ (“Original Sin”), and it has many daughters that teach the same in its essentials, though they may differ in the details. This is “antichrist” (vicarius christi).
“Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;” (Ephesians 2:15)
“In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:” (Colossians 1:22)

BluePrints · Saturday at 7:33 PM

Roman Catholicism has 3 official dogmatic doctrines:

[1] Original Sin - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Original Sin

[2] Immaculate Conception (of Mary, by 'Anne') - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

[3] Impeccability (Mary & Jesus) - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary

Roman Catholicism teaches that Jesus came in the unfallen flesh of Adam before sin, through the human nature of Mary, being "immaculately conceived' in 'Anne', and was thus free from the Roman Catholic dogma of 'Original Sin'. As Roman Catholicism teaches that to exist in sinful flesh is to be a sinner, rather than what scripture teaches, to commit sin is to be a sinner (1 Jhn. 3:4 KJB). This means that Roman Catholicism also teaches that Jesus could not (never had the choice) to sin (impeccability).

QUESTION: WHAT DOES “ANTICHRIST” TEACH THAT IS SO BAD?

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Bible declares that Jesus came “in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh” nature of mankind:

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [for "likeness" see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5]

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Flesh & Spirit Bible Chart Image - https://ia803405.us.archive.org/14/items/flesh-and-spirit-chart/Flesh And Spirit Chart.jpg

What does the difference in the fallen and unfallen nature mean in relation to the Everlasting Gospel?

If, as Roman Catholicism teaches, that their "Original Sin" dogma is correct, then to simply be born with fallen (sinful) flesh is to be a sinner at every and all moments, so long as that flesh is had, which means Jesus needed another "flesh", an "unfallen" flesh, through the dogma of "Immaculate Conception" (dogma, of Mary, by Anne, and thus Jesus does not inherit "Original Sin" or a "fallen" flesh nature, but "unfallen"), and as such, is "Impeccable" (cannot sin; dogma) and therefore did not sin. However, since no other amongst mankind came in such a manner after the fall of Adam, how then could Jesus be the "example" for fallen mankind in any fashion since their natures are differing, as all mankind has a fallen flesh nature (Rom. 3:23, 5:12). How could sin be condemned in the flesh of Jesus, if Jesus' flesh never was in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh? How could Jesus be subject to death, since death is only a result of sin (Rom. 6:23)? This also means that no Christian, or any amongst mankind, can have victory even over the smallest of sins, until they have a change of their flesh at the 2nd Advent of Jesus, which is why Roman Catholicism also requires "Auricular Confession" endlessly. They do not believe a Christian, under the power of the Holy Ghost / Spirit can have victory over sin, since their very flesh nature is inherently, at all times, sin itself. What salvation is had by this 'gospel'?

If, instead, as the scripture teaches, that Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh" (Rom. 8:3), and is yet victorious and without sin (1 Jhn. 3:4; Heb. 4:15), He is the "example" (1 Pet. 2:21) for all mankind, in that He was victorious, in the same way, all can be victorious over sin. Salvation from sin is had by this Gospel.

Mat_1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Consider many more resources on this subject, for those desiring to discuss it. Freely given for those that desire to consider (Pro. 18:13,17):

Restoration (I was personally present in the audience (not on film) for this presentation, and I personally know elder Dennis Priebe from my time with Amazing Facts ministry (2009-2017)) -

Restoration -

Face To Face With The Real Gospel 01-01 -

01-02 -

02-01 -

02-02 - - YouTube

Lamb · 2026-07-05T07:31:42-0400

Are you really here to ask questions or are you here to try to teach us because you disagree with what Christians teach?

Jesus is God.

Jesus was without sin.

Jesus died on the cross, bringing the world's sins there to be crucified and forgiven.

Jesus was resurrected because the sacrifice was accepted.

Jesus ascended into heaven.

Because you deny the trinity, you deny that Jesus is both man and God. Do I have that correct? A simple yes or no instead of a long-winded post inserting a bunch of links will do.

Maranatha · 2026-07-05T10:10:48-0400

@BluePrints,

We should,
avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
(Titus 3:9,ESV)

Here are some important verses for you
From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…(2 Timothy 3:15-17)

I just point this out, I won't get into debates

BluePrints · 2026-07-05T11:53:25-0400

Lamb said:
Are you really here to ask questions or are you here to try to teach us because you disagree with what Christians teach?

I am here to ask questions, but that does not imply I do not already know the answers to those questions. The posts are designed to get people (others) to think, first and foremost, as I have already thought upon the questions I ask for a long time, and still presently think upon them in ever more deeper study, and come to greater insights by the Holy Spirit of God. Sometimes, a beautiful piece comes from speaking with others, as their own experiences, having shaped their own thoughts and life, by the Spirit of God, in chosen places & times, gives to them a gift, which when I come into contact with, add into the greater mosaic of the truth.

Lamb said:
Jesus is God.

This is not in question by the OP at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“God manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

So the Son (Jesus) of the Father is "God manifest in the flesh" and "eternal life" itself. If that is not crystal clear, then I am at a loss as to how to provide anything more explicit to your mind.

Lamb said:
Jesus was without sin.

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5] - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“who knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:22) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

& many other such statements from scripture.

Thus, the Son (Jesus) of the Father "condemned sin in the flesh [His own]" because He "knew no sin" and "did no sin" in a perfect sinless life in example and substitute for fallen mankind. If that is not crystal clear, then I am at a loss as to how to provide anything more explicit to your mind.

Lamb said:
Jesus died on the cross, ...

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5] - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... having crucified the flesh ...” (Galatians 5:24) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... nailing it to His cross.” (Colossians 2:4) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

See also:

Php_2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And Jesus could only die "on the cross" by having taken upon Himself the fallen flesh of mankind, which is subject to death. Unfallen, sinless, is not subject to death, for death is the wages of sin (Rom. 6:23).

Lamb said:
bringing the world's sins there to be crucified and forgiven.

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5] - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... being put to death in the flesh ...” (1 Peter 3:18) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... having crucified the flesh ...” (Galatians 5:24) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... nailing it to His cross.” (Colossians 2:4) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

Yet, if a person rejects that Jesus took fallen (sinful) flesh (Rom. 8:3), and instead took the unfallen of nature of Adam before sin, then how did Jesus bring "the world's sins there [Calvary] to be crucified and forgiven"? It is an impossibility. That which was nailed to the cross was not spiritual, but flesh - the fallen flesh of mankind upon Christ Jesus. That is how He took upon Himself the sins of the world, by becoming one of mankind in the flesh they all bore since fallen Adam:

Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

BluePrints · 2026-07-05T11:53:41-0400

Lamb said:
Jesus was resurrected because the sacrifice was accepted.

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended.

Part of the vows that the Son (Jesus) of the Father made was to take upon Himself the "likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh" (Rom. 8:3).

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.

Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.

Psa 40:11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

Psa 40:12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me.

Heb_10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb_10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Heb_10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Jesus promised the Father:

Psa_116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.

Psa_116:18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people,

The Father accepted:

Psa_61:5 For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.

Lamb said:
Jesus ascended into heaven.

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended.

Jesus, being resurrected, dieth no more, and could only have been subject to death, by having taken upon Himself the "sinful (fallen) flesh" (Rom. 8:3) of mankind:

Rom_6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev_2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

That body which Jesus ascended with, is now immortalized, and seated in the Highest Heaven upon the throne of Eternal Deity, at the right hand of the Majesty (Father) on High.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Heb_1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Please notice, that mankind has a "vile body" of the flesh, which is what Jesus took upon Himself, and had to to save / deliver us:

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Lamb said:
Because you deny the trinity, ...

I deny the Roman Catholic "trinity" and "Nicaean trinitarianism", and made this most clear, but you did not desire to engage me in any conversation about what I actually believe, nor read what was presented in charity (Pro. 18:13,17), and summarily dismissed what I would say, by having shut down the thread by prerogative force of position in authority here. It is not different than the inquisition in silencing their opposition. I have many citations about what 'catholics' (small 'c') do to those who differ from them. In other words, the fault is not mine that you do not understand my position. That belongs to another. Since I am not allowed to discuss what I believe on the subject, there is no point in engaging here about it, since it is not the primary subject of the OP. I would have some specific questions for you, in the other thread (now closed), about the "una substantia" and the secondary nature Jesus took and how it applies to Roman "trinitarianism", that is inescapable.

Lamb said:
... you deny that Jesus is both man and God.

Where you obtained this wrong idea from, I cannot say, since my OP's and responses have always been clear.

Jesus is (and always was, and will be) Deity - "LORD", "God" (Jhn. 1:1c; Heb. 1:8-12), and later in due time, as such also is "God manifest in the flesh." (1 Tim. 3:16).

Jesus also took upon Himself the sinful (fallen) flesh of mankind, and became man (Php. 2:5-11; Rom. 8:3, &c.).

Thus Jesus is both "man and God". That you desire to misunderstand (or worse misrepresent, God forbid!) my position, is not my fault. That belongs to another, since I have been most transparent about what I believe and share.

Lamb said:
Do I have that correct?

Mostly correct, with the final part, incorrect.

Lamb said:
A simple yes or no instead of a long-winded post inserting a bunch of links will do.

Try not to control how I respond, please, as I do not seek to dictate how you respond, in charity (1 Cor. 13). That would be appreciated. I am not a puppet or robot to be dictated orders to. I am a sinner saved by the grace through faith, a blood-bought born again child of the Most High God by the shed blood of Jesus, and by the application of it by the Holy Ghost / Spirit. As such, I am your brother, dear sister. As your brother, please grant me the courtesy of responding in the freedom granted me by our Father.

In short, so that you may also be satisfied,

Yes, most is correct, but no, not all is correct. I have attempted to show which is which in my reply to your response.

BluePrints · 2026-07-05T12:03:21-0400

Maranatha said:
@BluePrints,

We should,
avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
(Titus 3:9,ESV)

What 'you' think is "unprofitable and worthless" is not my concern. I have posted scripture, and discuss scripture from the OP onward. Simply citing some random verse to justify your thinking in opposition to the OP, is not scripture study, and is taking a verse out of its context to suit 'you'.

The "ESV" is a terrible 'translation' of corrupt mss. This could be demonstrated ad nauseum, ad infinitum, but not here, as that is not the purpose of this OP or thread.

Maranatha said:
Here are some important verses for you
From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…(2 Timothy 3:15-17)

2 Tim. 3:15-17

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Is accepted, granted, acknowledged, admired, cherished and taught by myself already. Hence, why the OP, and the subject itself. The scriptures therein were given to "correct" the common error that is adhered to by many which have taken up the name "Christian", about the flesh nature of Jesus while on earth. The subject itself deals with how Salvation comes about because of that flesh (sinful (fallen)) nature, and what happens if another flesh nature (unfallen) takes its place.

Maranatha said:
I just point this out, I won't get into debates

And yet, you just did at least once, before ducking out.

Lamb · 2026-07-06T07:25:54-0400

BluePrints said:
I am here to ask questions, but that does not imply I do not already know the answers to those questions. The posts are designed to get people (others) to think, first and foremost, as I have already thought upon the questions I ask for a long time, and still presently think upon them in ever more deeper study, and come to greater insights by the Holy Spirit of God. Sometimes, a beautiful piece comes from speaking with others, as their own experiences, having shaped their own thoughts and life, by the Spirit of God, in chosen places & times, gives to them a gift, which when I come into contact with, add into the greater mosaic of the truth.

This is not in question by the OP at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“God manifest in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

So the Son (Jesus) of the Father is "God manifest in the flesh" and "eternal life" itself. If that is not crystal clear, then I am at a loss as to how to provide anything more explicit to your mind.

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5] - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“who knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Peter 2:22) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

& many other such statements from scripture.

Thus, the Son (Jesus) of the Father "condemned sin in the flesh [His own]" because He "knew no sin" and "did no sin" in a perfect sinless life in example and substitute for fallen mankind. If that is not crystal clear, then I am at a loss as to how to provide anything more explicit to your mind.

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5] - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... having crucified the flesh ...” (Galatians 5:24) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... nailing it to His cross.” (Colossians 2:4) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

See also:

Php_2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And Jesus could only die "on the cross" by having taken upon Himself the fallen flesh of mankind, which is subject to death. Unfallen, sinless, is not subject to death, for death is the wages of sin (Rom. 6:23).

This is not in question by the OP and subsequent posts (responses) at all. It is already granted, accepted, admitted, acknowledged, stated and defended. Did you see in my OP and responses where I provided explicit texts to that point? such as:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [“likeness”, see Php. 2:7; Rom. 6:5] - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... being put to death in the flesh ...” (1 Peter 3:18) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... having crucified the flesh ...” (Galatians 5:24) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

“... nailing it to His cross.” (Colossians 2:4) - What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

Yet, if a person rejects that Jesus took fallen (sinful) flesh (Rom. 8:3), and instead took the unfallen of nature of Adam before sin, then how did Jesus bring "the world's sins there [Calvary] to be crucified and forgiven"? It is an impossibility. That which was nailed to the cross was not spiritual, but flesh - the fallen flesh of mankind upon Christ Jesus. That is how He took upon Himself the sins of the world, by becoming one of mankind in the flesh they all bore since fallen Adam:

Rom_5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

He took our sins to the cross, but He Himself never became sinful. Do you agree?

BluePrints · 2026-07-06T10:45:09-0400

Lamb said:
He took our sins to the cross, but He Himself never became sinful. Do you agree?

The OP is about 'how' Jesus "took our sins to the cross". The discussion is to bring awareness to the 'how', and that 'how' is clearly described in the Bible through such texts as Rom. 8:3, which describes the Son coming in "the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh" so that Jesus could 'condemn sin in the flesh'; the "body" of the Son, that He took "the form of a servant" (Php. 2:7), and "made in the likeness of men" is described in the OT Psa. 51:5 as being "shapen in iniquity", and "in sin did my mother conceive me" and so "made of a woman, made under the law" (Gal. 4:4), "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

When you say, "He (Jesus) never became sinful", I agree that Jesus never committed sin (1 Jhn. 3:4), as per the many texts already cited, however, the "flesh" and "spirit" are not the same thing, as per Jhn. 3. The flesh / body of Jesus was "sinful (fallen) flesh" of mankind. The spirit / mind / heart of Jesus was "without sin".

If you are saying, by the phrase, "He (Jesus) never became sinful", that He did not take upon Himself "the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh", then I disagree with you at that point, and must continue amen-ing the scriptures, for the other way, leads to Jesus never becoming a substitute, example, or saviour from any sins.

Frankj · 2026-07-06T11:17:55-0400

BluePrints said:
When you say, "He (Jesus) never became sinful", I agree that Jesus never committed sin (1 Jhn. 3:4), as per the many texts already cited, however, the "flesh" and "spirit" are not the same thing, as per Jhn. 3. The flesh / body of Jesus was "sinful (fallen) flesh" of mankind. The spirit / mind / heart of Jesus was "without sin".

If you are saying, by the phrase, "He (Jesus) never became sinful", that He did not take upon Himself "the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh", then I disagree with you at that point, and must continue amen-ing the scriptures, for the other way, leads to Jesus never becoming a substitute, example, or saviour from any sins.

If you believe the Bible, all of it, not just the parts that support the opinion you want to support, Sin is passed from one generation to the next through the sinful nature of their fathers.

Jesus' father was God, not man, and Jesus did not inherit the sins, the sinful nature, of his father because there were none to inherit.

If this were not so then his sacrifice on the cross would have been an imperfect sacrifice, the way an animal sacrifice is an imperfect sacrifice, and the wages of sin would not have been fully paid by it.

BluePrints · 2026-07-06T12:20:58-0400

Frankj said:
If you believe the Bible,

"If"?, also said another:

Luk_4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

As I have said before:

Act_24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Frankj said:
... all of it, ...

See my previous response of Act. 24:14. Also, see:

Psa_119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Doubting everyone who disagrees with 'you' does not mean that they disagree with scripture, or have any doubt about it. It is even logically erroneous, since even you claim to believe "all of it [the Bible]", do you not? Yet, I can disagree with you, and not claim you do not believe the Bible. A person can believe the Bible and still be mistaken about what it says.

Frankj said:
... not just the parts that support the opinion you want to support, ...

As I have said before, I am not interested in "the opinion" of any man:

Psa_118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

Psa_146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Every position I have taken, on this forum, is always and ever from "all" of the Bible, and not from mere "parts" (partialism, in its own right), and you have not been able (at any point) in any response to show otherwise, but have instead continued in the logical fallacy of ad hominem (assault upon the person, not the position). As always, 'you' are not the final authority in matters of faith and practice, and it is not to 'you' that I compare myself, but rather, the Bible is the perfect mirror into which I look:

2Co_3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jas_1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Frankj said:
... Sin is passed ...

No. That is borrowed from the Catholic theology of "Original Sin" and it is nonsense and extremely dangerous, and not merely in a theological sense. Such horrendous theology leads to persons looking upon the innocency of a child as evil, sinful. Sin is not an inherited trait, but a learned one.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,

Eze 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Sin, in scripture, is not inherited, but committed:

1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

It is sinful nature (flesh) that is inherited.

Psa_51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Frankj said:
from one generation to the next through the sinful nature of their fathers.

You have confused, conflated, 'sin' and 'sinful nature'. They are not the same things.

Frankj said:
Jesus' father was God

Not in question.

Frankj said:
, not man,

Not in question, but you seem to leave out the "mother", from whom Jesus inherited the flesh nature of mankind? Why?

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

You just said, "... Sin is passed from one generation to the next through the sinful nature ...", and yet try to limit the nature only to "of their fathers", which is selectively excluding the matriarchal flesh, blood and DNA (flesh nature):

Gen_3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

And "Mary" was of the lineage of David (Luk. 3:23), in whose line of ancestry (and descendancy through Himself to Adam by creation), and thus David, a sinner, in sinful fallen flesh, was also "father" to Jesus (and also Mary):

Joh_7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Rom_1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2Ti_2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Luk_1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

And not only is David accounted as "father", but so also is "Abraham" (and many others; see the lineage given in Mat 1; Luk 3.):

Luk_1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Joh_8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Jesus is also linked directly to Judah:

Rev_5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

What will you say now?

BluePrints · 2026-07-06T12:21:15-0400

Frankj said:
and Jesus did not inherit the sins, the sinful nature, of his father because there were none to inherit.

You have a confusion of flesh and spirit (see Jhn. 3). There is no question that the Son was born by the Holy Ghost:

Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Yet, the flesh of the nature of mankind of Jesus came not from the Father in Heaven (who does not bear man's nature (fallen or unfallen), but His own eternal nature; Jhn. 17:3), but through the many 'fathers' since fallen Adam.

Frankj said:
If this were not so then his sacrifice on the cross would have been an imperfect sacrifice

No. The sacrifice only required spotless character / mind / heart (non-transgression of the Law of God; Jhn. 15:10; Psa. 40:7-8; 116:14,18; Heb. 10:7), not unfallen flesh of mankind. In fact, as stated previously, one who has the unfallen flesh of mankind, and is without sin, cannot die, and is not subject to death, neither indeed can be, unless that person sins even once. However, Rom. 8:3 is clear that Jesus, by His sinless life, obtained the victory over the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh He bore since birth:

Joh_2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Frankj said:
, the way an animal sacrifice is an imperfect sacrifice

An animal is an "imperfect sacrifice" because it does not have the flesh nature of mankind, nor the blood of mankind, is subject beneath God, and which life does not belong to it, being borrowed from the life of God by creation. An entire section of the material presented in this (now closed) thread, dealt with this - Have people rightly understood the primary doctrine on Father, Son & Holy Ghost?

See [starting on page 523] "QUESTION 043: CAN A CREATURE (EVEN A HIGHLY EXALTED ONE) HAVE DIED FOR THE SIN OF ADAM, & OF THE WHOLE WORLD?"

"... ANSWER 043: In short, “No.” ... No created being (even a highly exalted one) that God the Father chose could have died (made a blood sacrifice substitutional offering) for the sin of Adam, & of the whole world. ... Only that which is equal with God’s law, & eternal character, could satisfy the demands of the law. Yet, all creatures (even the highest created intelligence in heaven) are created, and finite, limited, and thus are under (beneath, subject, or ‘amen-able’ to) God’s law, and are not equal to it ... Created beings, therefore, cannot ever offer up their own life as a ransom, since their life is not their own to give, but belongs to God the Father. ... Created intelligences of Heaven (such as Gabriel, & ‘Herald’, &c.) could not offer their lives either, since they are also subject to God’s law, and their life is also not their own, nor are they of the same nature of mankind, and do not have the same blood of mankind. ... The sacrifice required the blood & nature of mankind, since it was mankind, made in God’s image (Adam & Eve; Gen. 1:26-28 KJB), which had sinned ... An animal (creature) could not be a ransom, since they are not of the nature of mankind, do not have the blood of mankind, and are subject to mankind, and their life belongs to God (Psa. 50:10-11; Act. 17:25 KJB) ..."

Frankj said:
, and the wages of sin would not have been fully paid by it.

Psa 50:9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Psa 50:11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.

Psa 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

Psa 50:13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?

Psa 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Frankj · 2026-07-06T15:11:22-0400

I stand on what I said, and I don't need lengthy statements that seem to be directed at confusion to justify it.

Why don't you try one of the Urantian or New Age forums, you would probably be better received there as I see nothing value to those of us who believe in the Trinity and accept the Nicene creed as truth and I doubt you are influencing anyone to change their thinking about that.

Since You identify as Seventh Day Adventist, should I see this as where you learned these false and unsound doctrines? That this is what they believe?

What kind of "flesh" did Jesus take in the 'incarnation', fallen or unfallen, & how does it affect the Gospel?

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