What do you look for in a church?

[NewCreation435]

I have been attending a church for the last two or three months and am trying to decide if I should stay or go. It is non denominational, which is different than Baptist which I have been for the last 30 years. There are some things I like about it. They have contemporary music and interesting sermons (most of the time).

What do you look for when your looking for a church home?

What would make you leave a church?

 

[Albion]

It's not the only thing, but correct doctrine ranks about at the top of my must have list.

 

[Tigger]

Me too. I start with theology which would include sacramental and the liturgy tends to follow. The pastor needs to be a good teacher with a passion for the Word and a good shepherd. He doesn’t have to be my bff Lol! But he does need to be approachable. The congregation has to be reasonably friendly and welcoming.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I start with Liturgy, after all how one worships shapes what one believes and vice versa. Doctrine follows. After that friendships and compassionate relations with the people outside the church.

 

[Josiah]

1. Correct doctrine. Solid, biblical, historic, orthodox theology.... with the humility to accept mystery, to evade "connect dots" and "filling in blanks."*


WAY DOWN from there, a great distance below that....

2. Where the Sacraments are embraced and correctly (and often ) celebrated.
3. A Clear and passionate embrace, focus and mission around the Great Commission and Great Commandment (and such is evident in their attitude, care, embrace, friendless and all their ministry)
4. Worship that is well thought out, well planned, well-done (I MUCH prefer traditional, liturgical worship but WELL DONE contemporary worship is acceptable)



What would make me leave? I can answer this because I once left a church: wrong theology; the demand that we accept/believe something that's unbiblical, untraditional, unique to that one denomination, and wrong. I left one (very, very relunctantly) for that reason. I agreed with maybe 95% of what it taught.... some others I could "live with" (not deal breakers) .... but there were false things being taught and demanded we accept/believe. Now..... IF there were two parishes in the same town with the SAME teachings, it's possible I'd leave one for the other for reasons #2, 3 or 4.... but I find that unlikely. My father said there are two kinds of people in the world: Those who are looking for greener grass and those working to make the grass greener. I'm in the second group. I'm using my gifts to help my parish grow in # 2, 3 and 4 - beginning with me.



Pax Christi



- Josiah




* #1 is so critical that - if in place, I'd pretty much be willing to give a "pass" on everything else. But where theology is bad, weak, sloppy, wrong or just largely unpresent - all else combined could not make up for it.




.

 

[NewCreation435]

you all aren't answering the second part of my question. What would make you leave?

 

[MoreCoffee]

you all aren't answering the second part of my question. What would make you leave?

Nothing I can think of now would make me leave. Certainly not to hop to some Protestant denomination.

 

[Josiah]

My older brother attends a huge, mega church. I won't mention it but you've probably heard of it.

Although not old, it has THOUSANDS in worship every week (actually, it's hard to count because most of them can't get in their huge auditorium ("worship center" they call it) and worship in satellites - some on campus, some not. Lots of young people (but folks of all ages). Lots of celebs. They have their own cafe (actually more than one) and their own Starbucks. There are so many groups I don't think even the "Lead Pastor" knows the number.... Theatre groups, every kind of sports, fitness things, clubs, organizations. Classes galore - including how to tame those teens, how to manage your finances, how to have a happy sex life (yes, I'm not kidding, they have a class in that). Classes for men, classes for women, classes for teens, classes for kids. And they have countless pastors. Some pastors for this, some pastors for that (not sure any went to seminary.... or even college.... but they have "Pastor" in front of their name). A big center for the youth! A gym. A theatre for plays. And it's a GREAT place to meet members of the other gender (the point my brother likes most, although he's still single).

And the "worship" service is..... well...... LOUD. I mean, seats fibrating LOUD. BIG screens..... LOTS of visual stuff! Better than most professional concerts (and they do this every week - several times every week). A band at least the equal of any in professional rock music. This is NOT your typical "If you even THINK you can play an instrument - and own said instrument (cuz we don't) - you are in the praise band." No. This is very, very professional.

And there's no theology. None. "We preach Christ!" "We teach the Bible!" Of course, Mormons say the same thing. As far as my brother knows, there is no creed, no confession other than that. And, as far as he's been able to determine in about 5 years of going there, it's "it's nice to be nice" and "praise is an awesome thing." That's about it.

Because my brother strongly insisted, I've been to his church. I wouldn't call it a church. At all. And after a couple of visits, I won't waste a Sunday going there. But I guess I'm in the minority.

 

[NewCreation435]

My older brother attends a huge, mega church. I won't mention it but you've probably heard of it.

Although not old, it has THOUSANDS in worship every week (actually, it's hard to count because most of them can't get in their huge auditorium ("worship center" they call it) and worship in satellites - some on campus, some not. Lots of young people (but folks of all ages). Lots of celebs. They have their own cafe (actually more than one) and their own Starbucks. There are so many groups I don't think even the "Lead Pastor" knows the number.... Theatre groups, every kind of sports, fitness things, clubs, organizations. Classes galore - including how to tame those teens, how to manage your finances, how to have a happy sex life (yes, I'm not kidding, they have a class in that). Classes for men, classes for women, classes for teens, classes for kids. And they have countless pastors. Some pastors for this, some pastors for that (not sure any went to seminary.... or even college.... but they have "Pastor" in front of their name). A big center for the youth! A gym. A theatre for plays. And it's a GREAT place to meet members of the other gender (the point my brother likes most, although he's still single).

And the "worship" service is..... well...... LOUD. I mean, seats fibrating LOUD. BIG screens..... LOTS of visual stuff! Better than most professional concerts (and they do this every week - several times every week). A band at least the equal of any in professional rock music. This is NOT your typical "If you even THINK you can play an instrument - and own said instrument (cuz we don't) - you are in the praise band." No. This is very, very professional.

And there's no theology. None. "We preach Christ!" "We teach the Bible!" Of course, Mormons say the same thing. As far as my brother knows, there is no creed, no confession other than that. And, as far as he's been able to determine in about 5 years of going there, it's "it's nice to be nice" and "praise is an awesome thing." That's about it.

Because my brother strongly insisted, I've been to his church. I wouldn't call it a church. At all. And after a couple of visits, I won't waste a Sunday going there. But I guess I'm in the minority.

I think there is a mentality in younger people today in particular that is a consumerism mentality. Going to church is like going to the mall or going anywhere else, they want to get something from it. It isn't about sacrifice or giving or even deep thought. But, what I have learned is that I am not accountable for everyone else. When I stand in front of God it is only going to be me and that is who I need to focus on. I am a full time job all by myself I don't need to be examining or questioning other people's motives.

 

[Albion]

Nothing I can think of now would make me leave. Certainly not to hop to some Protestant denomination.

Well, of course. Most people jump to another denomination when they think it solves the problems they're experiencing with the one they belong to at present.

But when you've already found out what the other contenders are like by having been a member of those churches, one after another, of course there's a much lower probability of you doing it all over again. That you do not intend to do it isn't exactly surprising. But if you're happy with your current affiliation, that's good. :thumbsup:

 

[Albion]

I like your replies, Tigger and Josiah. I, too, was thinking about liturgy when I answered above. For some reason, I focused on the single issue that most mattered, but that's not really what the OP asked. Correct doctrine would be most important to me, but a dignified, liturgical worship would be very important, too. One reason it would not compete with doctrine, however, is because I can be happy with Low Church or with High Church worship (preferably the first of these) so long as it's dignified, reverent. That is one reason why I probably couldn't be a contented Lutheran. I've been present at too many liturgies in Lutheran churches that were not dignified even though they followed the correct format.

 

[Albion]

And the "worship" service is..... well...... LOUD. I mean, seats fibrating LOUD. BIG screens..... LOTS of visual stuff! Better than most professional concerts (and they do this every week - several times every week). A band at least the equal of any in professional rock music. This is NOT your typical "If you even THINK you can play an instrument - and own said instrument (cuz we don't) - you are in the praise band." No. This is very, very professional.

And there's no theology. None. "We preach Christ!" "We teach the Bible!" Of course, Mormons say the same thing. As far as my brother knows, there is no creed, no confession other than that. And, as far as he's been able to determine in about 5 years of going there, it's "it's nice to be nice" and "praise is an awesome thing." That's about it.

Because my brother strongly insisted, I've been to his church. I wouldn't call it a church. At all. And after a couple of visits, I won't waste a Sunday going there. But I guess I'm in the minority.

I've talked with a few people who are very high on the kind of worship you are describing. They really, sincerely, feel that it's deeply worshipful. Maybe the swaying hands in the air at some of these events are thought to indicate as much. Little of what else there is doesn't do so.

While I respect their beliefs and their sincerity, and I'd rather they be there than nowhere near a church, for myself I cannot escape thinking that it's essentially a concert with a religious theme.

 

[Tigger]

you all aren't answering the second part of my question. What would make you leave?

Good theology is worthless if when it comes to how we treat others is poor, then it is only hot air and ink on paper. I highly appreciate Lutheran distinctives and you could have a confessional pastor that crosses all his T’s and dots all of his I’s when teaching and preaching but he was ornery all the time, it would be less than worthless being he’d be doing more harm to the church than good. If that was the case and no other Lutheran congregations near by I’d be visiting other denominations.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

I have been attending a church for the last two or three months and am trying to decide if I should stay or go. It is non denominational, which is different than Baptist which I have been for the last 30 years. There are some things I like about it. They have contemporary music and interesting sermons (most of the time).

What do you look for when your looking for a church home?

What would make you leave a church?

I'm looking for solid, Biblical doctrine, good liturgy and congregational devotion to the same. I found that in the churches affiliated with the LCMS.
Widespread apostasy from the teachings of the church would make me leave.

 

[faramir.pete]

I have been attending a church for the last two or three months and am trying to decide if I should stay or go. It is non denominational, which is different than Baptist which I have been for the last 30 years. There are some things I like about it. They have contemporary music and interesting sermons (most of the time).

What do you look for when your looking for a church home?

What would make you leave a church?

First let me state that I am not a member of a church right now, and have not been for some years.

That said if I were seeking a church to join likeothers here I would check their doctrine, teaching and worship style as all of these are important to me. Then I would attend for a while to see how they treat newcomers.

This in the past has been where the chuches have failed my personal test. You see most churches I have been to insist on some form of check list for its members. It is not enough for them that someone attends and is willing to learn, they also have to try to make them into some sort of clone that is easily controlled. Presumably so they will continue to contribute to the upkeep of the infrastructure and the management structure of the church in question. Mostly it turns out that churches like attendees that turn up, pay up and sing along with their message.

I am still looking for one that simply follows Christ and encourages its members to do that too.

What would make me leave - too much control from above, and too little humility and clarity that Christ is in control.


Pete from Peterborough UK

 

[Josiah]

I've talked with a few people who are very high on the kind of worship you are describing. They really, sincerely, feel that it's deeply worshipful. Maybe the swaying hands in the air at some of these events are thought to indicate as much. Little of what else there is doesn't do so.

While I respect their beliefs and their sincerity, and I'd rather they be there than nowhere near a church, for myself I cannot escape thinking that it's essentially a concert with a religious theme.

Worship style for ME is down the list..... I like quite traditional, liturgical worship but this is probably because I grew up with that AND because I understand what's going on (the history, theology, Scripture basis). But I'm not opposed to "contemporary" worship per se I'VE simply experienced that it tends to be very shallow of theology and often poorly done (more volumn that quality). The point, at least at times, seems to be to reflect the world, to seem as secular and worldly as possible and be loud. But IMO worship can be thoughtful, Scriptural, theologically rich and musically good in any style. In fairness, I've witnessed "traditional" worship that's pretty bad, too. And while contemporary "Praise Bands" can be pretty showy and all about entertainment, in truth - that can be true with traditional worship, too.


BUT, in my opinion, I'd be more than willing to accept sloppy worship if the theology is sound, solid and biblical (in time, I'd volunteer to help with worship, however!). But it doesn't work the other way around: There are Episcopalian churches (and Catholic ones) with awesome worship - and empty or wrong theology. I'm not going to associate (much less say I agree) with bad theology - in part because that's condemned in Scripture and in part because I may be impacted by this wrong, empty or sloppy theology ("garbage in, garbage out"); bad teaching corrupts.


The same goes for the pastor/minister/priest. While I'd MUCH prefer one who is loving, caring, friendly, helpful (who SHOWS the Gospel and not just proclaims it), I'd gladly accept a crab who is theologically sound and teaches/preaches correctly than a sweetheart heretic, lol. But I've found it's generally not either/or. IMO, theology trumps everything else.



My half cent.


- Josiah

 

[Albion]

BUT, in my opinion, I'd be more than willing to accept sloppy worship if the theology is sound, solid and biblical (in time, I'd volunteer to help with worship, however!). But it doesn't work the other way around: There are Episcopalian churches (and Catholic ones) with awesome worship - and empty or wrong theology. I'm not going to associate (much less say I agree) with bad theology - in part because that's condemned in Scripture and in part because I may be impacted by this wrong, empty or sloppy theology ("garbage in, garbage out"); bad teaching corrupts

Well, I am in general agreement with what you've said here. That's why, in my initial response, I put doctrine at the top of my list. A less than perfect worship format can be excused if it's not downright awful--or if it's just different. But we cannot do that with doctrine. In fact, there are some churches that are not liturgical but which have some natural appeal for me simply because they are dignified and reverent. Christian Science, for example, although its teachings make it completely unacceptable as a home church.

However, what you call "sloppy" worship is a killer for me. And I've seen that in both liturgical churches and, also, the praise band/glassy-eyes/pep rally/Christian rock shows of the non-denoms and Pentecostals. It's a bit harder to describe when it's the liturgical churches doing it, but I've seen some services that are terrible, and I am not primarily thinking of the 'drama queen' kind of pastor who overdoes the postures and vestments, etc.

 

[tango]

I have been attending a church for the last two or three months and am trying to decide if I should stay or go. It is non denominational, which is different than Baptist which I have been for the last 30 years. There are some things I like about it. They have contemporary music and interesting sermons (most of the time).

What do you look for when your looking for a church home?

What would make you leave a church?

I look for a church that is welcoming, where the teaching is clearly Scriptural and based on sound doctrine and ideally one that uses a reasonably contemporary style of worship. The doctrine and teaching is the most important, followed by the nature of the congregation (welcoming etc). I can put up with a style of worship I might not ordinarily choose if other things are in order.

I've left a church twice. The first one was a church where I was a member for seven years (and am technically still a member). I didn't want to leave the church but I moved out of the area so continuing to attend was no longer an option. Given it was for purely logistic reasons it doesn't really count for the purposes of your question

The second time I left a church was because it was very clear their teaching was fundamentally faulty and the leadership clearly had no interest in changing course. As far as I could tell the minister would listen to comments and change direction, only to change back if someone asked for things to be changed back. They were fully immersed in the culture of Bethel, Jesus Culture, IHOP etc and it frankly became more like an endurance contest to see how long I could tolerate what passed for worship before literally walking out of the service. The minister insisted that he believed a huge revival was coming and would start in his church yet it was clear from his demeanour and the tone in his voice he had long since stopped believing anything of the sort. The last straw was when I had a long discussion with one of the council members about why I believed the teachers they were following were leading them astray - he asked me if I could send him an email so he could read over it and give me a considered reply (which was eminently reasonable, given I'd had time to think about things and make the case), and then never responded to my email at all. So my wife and I walked away from that church completely. I think it's the only time we could honestly say that we hoped a church failed, even though it pained us to say it. It was a classic example of doublethink - they declared themselves prosperous but couldn't pay their bills, they declared themselves blessed but the people needing ministry never seemed to improve, people who insisted they were healed continued to visit the doctor, and so on. The biggest problems there were that the theology was massively faulty and the style of "worship" was so mind numbingly repetitive I couldn't stand it.

 

[Albion]

BUT, in my opinion, I'd be more than willing to accept sloppy worship if the theology is sound, solid and biblical (in time, I'd volunteer to help with worship, however!). But it doesn't work the other way around: There are Episcopalian churches (and Catholic ones) with awesome worship - and empty or wrong theology. I'm not going to associate (much less say I agree) with bad theology.

Josiah, I was just re-reading your post and a thought came to me out of left field. It may be something that would get in the way of the discussion on the subject you gave us, but it's related. I think that there is a story within a story with this matter of doctrine and worship style.

You said that there are Episcopal and Catholic churches that are great on worship but defective when it comes to doctrine. I certainly agree that there are. But as for the average parishioner who (let's say) puts sound doctrine at the top of his 'must have' list...

what if the local parish is straight arrow but the denomination is far gone from right teaching? Should the parishioner forgive the national church or put it out of his mind as not affecting him locally? IMO this is a real issue that has confronted many a church member. Or should he leave for another denomination?

 

[tango]

Josiah, I was just re-reading your post and a thought came to me out of left field. It may be something that would get in the way of the discussion on the subject you gave us, but it's related. I think that there is a story within a story with this matter of doctrine and worship style.

You said that there are Episcopal and Catholic churches that are great on worship but defective when it comes to doctrine. I certainly agree that there are. But as for the average parishioner who (let's say) puts sound doctrine at the top of his 'must have' list...

what if the local parish is straight arrow but the denomination is far gone from right teaching? Should the parishioner forgive the national church or put it out of his mind as not affecting him locally? IMO this is a real issue that has confronted many a church member. Or should he leave for another denomination?

I know you didn't direct this to me but your comment about being great on worship but defective on doctrine is an interesting one. I wonder if it's even possible to be "great on worship" if doctrine is badly out of kilter. It reminds me of the church I left because of such desperately flawed theology - one of the teachers they started to follow taught things that were demonstrably the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches, to the point I was left with no conclusion I could draw other than that I did not recognise the god he described. How could I follow such a man in worship when I didn't recognise the god he described?