What do Lutherans believe?

[Lamb]

Okay, Lutherans don't practice Sola Scriptura. They practice catechismal litugy. Much like the Roman church a few verses will be read, without exposition, and a liturgy will be read that doesn't relate to the scripture.
Yes, most churches have statements of faith, that are expressed so that those who choose to attend can know the basic doctrinal stance. Attendees are expected to listen, take notes, ask questions and cross check what is taught with the scriptures. In other words, be like the Bereans.
Lutherans teach consubstantiation, which just means they think the wafers and wine turn to meat and blood a little later than the Romans.
Finally, what do Norma and Norman Gustafson have to do with this besides being good Scandinavian Lutherans?

You haven't been paying attention at all to what the Lutherans have been saying.

 

[MennoSota]

You haven't been paying attention at all to what the Lutherans have been saying.

I pay attention to what Lutherans do. I live where there are Lutheran and Roman churches on every other corner. They are mostly well meaning, but Sola Scriptura is not important. Just follow the liturgy and get out. Very few could quote more than a handful of verses and they would have no clue what the context is surrounding those verses.
Mostly they claim to be a good Lutheran or a good Catholic. They define good as having the scales weigh out where they are doing more good deeds than bad. The key for them is whether they were baptized as an infant and made it through the confirmation class. If confirmation class is brought up, it is usually about the goofball teacher they had to endure. But, they made it through the class and they rarely have been back...save a Christmas or Easter.
I applaud the people on this board who are Lutheran or Catholic. You may be the most sincere persons of your respective denominations. At least you are willing to discuss your faith and tie it to the scripture. That's a rare thing in your denominations.

 

[Josiah]

I pay attention to what Lutherans do.

Please note the title of this thread; it is not about what anyone does but what Lutherans believe. What Lutherans DO is what all people do: sin.

That's a rare thing in your denominations.

I have news for you: Most Christians OF ALL DENOMINATIONS are frightfully ignorant and uncaring about the fine points of theology; few care about it and fewer still are very informed. I agree with you, the folks we see posting about theology in forums such as this are among the minority that DO care and ARE (at least somewhat) aware.

Of course, as you know, Lutherans are among the very, very few denominations that speak of theology and that require members to take classes in such (in my parish, youth take 3 years of classes for Confirmation, adults get a big break, I only had to take 12 weeks - 24 hours - of classes but I did hundreds of hours more). Catholics also have Confirmation and RCIA classes (the later is for roughly 6 months). How long are the youth Confirmation classes in your Reformed parish? How long are the classes for adult converts in your parish? In many Protestant churches, there are no theology classes for youth AT ALL (not even a few hours) and while there may be a "Orientation Class" for adults, it often is just a couple of hours and is mostly about stewardship and being an active member, not theology. My brother attends a huge mega-church of "Evangelical" orientation; while it has perhaps 100 or more "study groups" at any given time, my survey of the many offerings found NOT ONE class about theology/doctrine, church history or anything remotely related to the issue you note - not one - a member could not study this if they wanted to (and I'm sure the reason no such class is offered is because... well.... neither the church or the members give a rip). I think Lutherans are far better than most, but yes - they should be more aware than they are.

I not only participated in the 12 week Adult Class and read the textbook (probably 300 pages), but I also purchased and read the theology textbooks used in LCMS seminaries to train pastors. It's called "Christian Doctrine" and it's a large 3 volumn set by Francis Pieper. I read all of it (probably over 1000 pages) as a part of my Adult Confirmation and spent hours with my pastor (who has a doctorate in theology) discussing it.



Back to the issue of this thread....



- Josiah



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[MennoSota]

Please note the title of this thread; it is not about what anyone does but what Lutherans believe. What Lutherans DO is what all people do: sin.




I have news for you: Most Christians OF ALL DENOMINATIONS are frightfully ignorant and uncaring about the fine points of theology; few care about it and fewer still are very informed. I agree with you, the folks we see posting about theology in forums such as this are among the minority that DO care and ARE (at least somewhat) aware. Of course, Lutherans are among the very, very few denominations that speak of theology and that require members to take classes in such (in my parish, youth take 3 years of classes for Confirmation, adults get a big break, I only had to take 12 weeks - 24 hours - of classes but I did hundreds of hours more). Catholics also have Confirmation and RCIA classes (the later is for roughly 6 months). How long are the youth Confirmation classes in your Reformed parish? How long are the classes for adult converts in your parish? In many Protestant churches, there are no theology classes for youth AT ALL (not even a few hours) and while there may be a "Orientation Class" for adults, it often is just a couple of hours and is mostly about stewardship and being an active member, not theology.


Back to the issue of this thread....



- Josiah

Josiah, do and believe are like hand in glove. A person does what s/he believes. Theology is merely theoretical if it is not lived out.
As for my church...we have a four year cycle with our youth where they go through the Bible. The young ones receive very factual information, verses and psssages are memorized, but by the time learners are in their upper teens they are brought to critical thought regarding scripture. What does God's word say and what does that mean for your life. Adults receive in - depth training through verse-by - verse expository inquiry. Books of the Bible are explored and cross-referenced to determine the entire scope of God's grace. We have a well trained and highly articulate church. Iron sharpens iron.

Lutherans may point at the concordia as a basic guide to point out their historic views, but what is the practice of the church members. The practice will determine if a re-formation is needed. In my observation I see a desperate need for reformation within the Lutheran Church community. The 95 thesis could easily be nailed to the doors of most Lutheran churches. Luther, himself, would be the first one to nail it on the door.

 

[Albion]

Lutherans may point at the concordia as a basic guide to point out their historic views, but what is the practice of the church members. The practice will determine if a re-formation is needed. In my observation I see a desperate need for reformation within the Lutheran Church community. The 95 thesis could easily be nailed to the doors of most Lutheran churches. Luther, himself, would be the first one to nail it on the door.

If you ask me, you have to make your case with some facts, not simply go at Lutherans in general some of the time but fall back upon personal experience with some individuals at other times.

And, as said before, there are a number of different Lutheran church bodies. If you are critical of the ELCA...well, so also are members of just about every other Lutheran church in this country!

 

[Josiah]

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The issue of this thread is what Lutheranism teaches, the TEACHINGS of Lutheranism.....



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[Josiah]

These will help....


http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php


https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs


If you have any questions, I recommend you ask.





Some comments....


1. As with Catholics, it's difficult to say what ALL Lutherans "believe." There are a LOT of them. It's easier to say what Lutheranism officially/formally teaches. But since nearly all Lutherans at their Confirmation note their agreement with the Catechism, that would be a good place to look for common denominators (a link to it is above).


2. There are over 300 Lutheran denominations in the world mostly because very, very few are multinational (most are limited to one country). As we see with many faith communities, there is a conservative/moderate divide in many countries. In the USA, the more moderate denomination is the ELCA (created by nearly 200 years of mergers; this group is primarily Swedish/Danish/Norwegian in heriitage). There are several that are conservative, the two largest being the LCMS and WELS. The LCMS (several here at CH belong to congregations that are members of this denomination) and WELS are both of German heritage. In Australia, the conservative group is "The Lutheran Church of Australia." While OFFICIALLY they hold to the same teachings, and they are largely in agreement, there are differences. It would be impossible in this thread to note all the various differences between the 300+ Lutheran denominations around the world, although nearly all do subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions and nearly all Confirmations of laity involved a subscription to the Catechism (referenced above).


3. The Lutheran Reformation was a conservative one, quite unlike the revolutions that followed. So, Lutheranism often looks and sounds pretty Catholic. Lutheranism is more simple (for example, Luther's Catechism is 12 pages long, the 1994 edition of the RCC's Catechism is 800 pages long, although it's not an apples-to-apples comparison). Lutheranism ALLOWS a number of views (for example regarding Mary) that Catholicism MANDATES. Lutherans often conclude that the RC Denomination "says too much" and "dogmatizes too much". Lutherans affirm MYSTERY (a word they use a lot) eager to affirm what God says but willing to "let God have the last word" and to accept "tensions." Lutherans ask questions but don't appoint self alone to "answer" them and require God to agree. There is a deep sense of humility and awe in Lutheranism.


4. Luther had no intention of splitting the RC Denomination or in creating a separate denomination; he simply wanted to discuss some issues and to reform some abuses (which 500 years later, Catholics are finally admitted existed and Luther was right to note). Luther, however, did question some teachings which were not dogmas at the time (and thus could be debated) these included Papal Infallibility, Transubstantiation (rather than Real Presence), and the RCC's claim that it itself exclusively is unaccountable for its unique teachings. Later Purgatory was also questioned. And while Luther did not originally think the Gospel was contrary to the RCC's teaching, the RCC chose that to be the centerpiece of its protest of Luther and the issue over which it excommunicated Luther and split itself - Luther arguing that Jesus is the Savior and thus saves us (His works being the works which justify in the narrow sense) and the RCC now officially protesting that actually Jesus doesn't do it but rather it is a synergistic, cooperative, long-time process (continuing into Purgatory) whereby self saves self albeit with much help from the RC Denomination. Luther affirmed MUCH (indeed, the overwhelming majority) of what the RC Denomination officially taught AT THAT TIME and had few problems with Catholic customs (Latin worship and prohibiting clergy from marriage being among the few he disagreed with - neither dogmas at the time).



Questions regarding Doctrine are welcomed....



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah




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[MennoSota]

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The issue of this thread is what Lutheranism teaches, the TEACHINGS of Lutheranism.....



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No. The title is: What do Lutherans believe?
The answer is that most believe something entirely or mostly different than Martin Luther believed. However, that could be said of many denominations as the vast majority have opted for liberal pragmatism and a social gospel.

 

[Josiah]

No. The title is: What do Lutherans believe?
The answer is that most believe something entirely or mostly different than Martin Luther believed

I'd wonder how you document what most of the 75 million Lutherans believe.... and how you document that what they believe is different than Luther.... and even if you could document that, so what? Yes, Luther believed that Mary remained a virgin all her life, so what IF you could prove that at least 37,500,001 Lutherans either disagree or have no opinion, what difference would that make? Yes, Calvin also believed that Mary remained a virgin all her life, so what if you could prove that 20,000,001 Calvinists don't hold to that view, what would that prove?


Frankly, I'm not interested in addressing what 37,500,001 + people who are officially registered in a congregation that is a member of one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations "believe" about stuff. There's simply no way to document that information. I SUSPECT most think the world is sorta round but I have no data on that. I SUSPECT that most of the world's Calvinist think that Donald Trump is the president of the USA (whether they like that or not) but I have nothing whatsoever to prove that. If you wish to speak of what 37,500,001 of Lutherans believe - then you'll need to provide the documentation for such. And good luck.

While it's impossible to discuss what most Lutherans believe about stuff, we can discuss what Lutheranism teaches. https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs




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[Josiah]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]


Did this reply help you, jsimms435?

Again, as I noted earlier friend, you indicate that it states the Body and Blood are present "under the bread and wine" not "replacing the bread and wine."

Here is a discussion of the 3 popular Western views on this: http://www.christianityhaven.com/sh...an-quot-is-quot-Catholic-Lutheran-Evangelical I invite and encourage you to check that out.


While I couldn't find the quote you mention, I did find this. It comes not from the LCMS specifically but it IS from a series written by a former LCMS president in a series he wrote entitled, "What About?" There pastor Berry states,



Luther twice in his entire life used the word "under" to refer to the bread and wine. As I shared with MC above, Luther did this (only twice) in the context of Transubstantiation. Transubstantiation was not dogma (or even official teaching) in Luther's day and so was by no means binding. It was one of many theories invented by western, medieval, RCC Scholastics to use modern pop ideas to explain away "mysteries" of the faith. Luther clearly rejected that theory (again, permitted in his day - it was not made dogma until 3 years after his death). Luther rejects this imputation of two pagan pre-science theories because he found them unbiblical, unnecessary and (above all) dangerous. Luther (like the Catholic Church then and now) stressed the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (again, see the link provided above). He felt - strongly - that this particular Scholastic theory destroyed the biblical basis of Real Presence - which absolutely depended on taking the Eucharistic texts "as is" fully embracing that each word means exactly what it says. But if "is" doesn't mean "is".... if most of what comes after the "is" actually is NOT (at least fully) then Luther believed there was no reason to accept that Christ IS present. Indeed, Zwingli would follow precisely in the footsteps of the RCC's theory and did EXACTLY as Luther predicted would be done. To Luther, to surrrender the literal reading of the texts is to destroy the ancient, universal embrace of Real Presence (Zwingli proved him correct). IMO, Luther's twice use of "with" is better than his twice use of "under" but the point is the same: to stress that all the texts say is true. To Luther (as to Catholics) the bread and wine are insignificant but to iuphold the presence of the Body and Blood we must accept them as well - or destroy the whole textual reason for accepting Body and Blood. Note that this whole discussion was allowed at the time; after Luther's death the RCC would make this particular medieval Scholastic RCC theory into dogma (another "nail" to put in Luther's coffin - albeit after his death) but when Luther shared these views, it was far from dogmatic status and lively discussion (and disagreement) with it was not at all uncommon. Note too how Dr. Berry notes the Lutheran emphasis on MYSTERY.

Again, see the link provided above in his post.



Thanks! I hope that helps!


- Josiah



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[MennoSota]

I'd wonder how you document what most of the 75 million Lutherans believe.... and how you document that what they believe is different than Luther.... and even if you could document that, so what? Yes, Luther believed that Mary remained a virgin all her life, so what IF you could prove that at least 37,500,001 Lutherans either disagree or have no opinion, what difference would that make? Yes, Calvin also believed that Mary remained a virgin all her life, so what if you could prove that 20,000,001 Calvinists don't hold to that view, what would that prove?


Frankly, I'm not interested in addressing what 37,500,001 + people who are officially registered in a congregation that is a member of one of the 300+ Lutheran denominations "believe" about stuff. There's simply no way to document that information. I SUSPECT most think the world is sorta round but I have no data on that. I SUSPECT that most of the world's Calvinist think that Donald Trump is the president of the USA (whether they like that or not) but I have nothing whatsoever to prove that. If you wish to speak of what 37,500,001 of Lutherans believe - then you'll need to provide the documentation for such. And good luck.

While it's impossible to discuss what most Lutherans believe about stuff, we can discuss what Lutheranism teaches. https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs




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Yes, you can share what the Missouri Synod version of Lutheranism officially teaches, but that would not be answering the question of the OP.

 

[Albion]

Yes, you can share what the Missouri Synod version of Lutheranism officially teaches, but that would not be answering the question of the OP.

Help us out here. If that doesn't answer tge question, nothing from any other Lutheran church body would. And the historical documents of Lutheranism have already been presented only to be scoffed at. What, then, WOULD answer the question?

 

[Albion]

No. The title is: What do Lutherans believe?
The answer is that most believe something entirely or mostly different than Martin Luther believed. .

So what???? Lutherans are not asked to believe Luther was a prophet or a pope or anything like that.

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

So what???? Lutherans are not asked to believe Luther was a prophet or a pope or anything like that.

This is most certainly true. We subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions.

 

[NewCreation435]

[MENTION=59]jsimms435[/MENTION]


Did this reply help you, jsimms435?






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No, it makes no sense to me at all. When Jesus first celebrates the Lord's Supper with him Luke 22:14-19 NIV says
4 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”

17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

I don't see this as anything but symbolic. Jesus was sitting right there with them at the time. Clearly it was not his body and was symbolic. He said to do this in remembrance.

 

[MennoSota]

Help us out here. If that doesn't answer tge question, nothing from any other Lutheran church body would. And the historical documents of Lutheranism have already been presented only to be scoffed at. What, then, WOULD answer the question?

A survey of Lutherans asking them, "What do you believe?", would be a good start. The data could give us the real answer.

 

[Albion]

"I don't see this as anything but symbolic. Jesus was sitting right there with them at the time. Clearly it was not his body and was symbolic. He said to do this in remembrance. I don't see this as anything but symbolic. Jesus was sitting right there with them at the time. Clearly it was not his body and was symbolic. He said to do this in remembrance."


Theres no "clearly" about it. That is just your interpretation of the words. You prefer to think that Jesus was speaking only symbolically.

And by the way, the fact that he was sitting there does not rule out the bread being made by him to be his body in some way or sense.

 

[MennoSota]

Here's a more generic survey, but if we assume Lutherans are a mainline denomination and not evanjellyfish, the data looks rather concerning.

https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...tholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

 

[Josiah]

Help us out here. If that doesn't answer tge question, nothing from any other Lutheran church body would. And the historical documents of Lutheranism have already been presented only to be scoffed at. What, then, WOULD answer the question?

It seems our friend wants documented objective proof of the thoughts of every one of the 37,500,000 Lutherans of the world on every topic - and then a comparison of each thought of each Lutheran on every point with Martin Luther (why the later matters, I have no clue). I have opted out of that discussion since it's impossible. Perhaps I'll begin a thread on what every Calvinist thinks about every topic and compare each and every thought with that of John Calvin - and see what documentation our friend has for that. Or maybe that would just be nonsensical.


We CAN discuss what Lutheranism teaches. The Book of Concord does a pretty good job of presenting that and several posters have put up links to that. And when presented with a specific doctrine, several posters have given good replies of what we were taught. None of the Lutherans here have a doctorate in theology but they are fairly knowledgeable.


As for MY credentials, besides studying the Small Catechism and Augsburg Confession, I've read all the Book of Concord. I also participated in my congregations' Adult Confirmation class, a 12 week study using Steven P. Mueller's book "Called by the Gospel, Called to Believe Teach and Confess (Wipf & Stock 2001) 575 pages - the book we used for that study. On my own with the pastor I also purchased and studied, "Christian Dogmatics" a 3 volume set (plus index) by Francis Pieper (CPH 1950) Vol 1 - 577 pages, Vol 2 - 556 pages, Vol 3 - 555 pages (the original work was published in 1917-1924 but mine is an English translation published in 1950). This is the set used to teach dogmatics to LCMS pastors. I also took a dogmatics class. Lamm, Tigger and Confessional Lutheran seem to also have a very good handle on Lutheran teachings. So, questions about specific doctrines can be addressed by several (rather knowledgable) Lutherans (not just one).



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

"I don't see this as anything but symbolic. Jesus was sitting right there with them at the time. Clearly it was not his body and was symbolic. He said to do this in remembrance. I don't see this as anything but symbolic. Jesus was sitting right there with them at the time. Clearly it was not his body and was symbolic. He said to do this in remembrance."


Theres no "clearly" about it. That is just your interpretation of the words. You prefer to think that Jesus was speaking only symbolically.

And by the way, the fact that he was sitting there does not rule out the bread being made by him to be his body in some way or sense.

You have to stretch truth to get to your position, Albion.
The text is clear that neither the bread nor the wine became an actual part of Jesus body being eaten. As with infant baptism, there is a great leap being made via silence.