Water Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

I finally figured out why I have such conflict with Josiah's...

In how many threads did you copy and paste your post?

 

[MennoSota]

In how many threads did you copy and paste your post?

In how many threads did you read it?

 

[MoreCoffee]

As one poster wrote (bold below, with minor corrections) Let's make sure we return to the topic and deal with the issue.

Since the topic is “water baptism”, I have to ask: Does the adult or infant really experience all of those things at the moment they are sprinkled, poured or dunked with/in water?

Yes, the one baptised receives all the things listed; namely, their baptism means:

• being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
• having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
• the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
• enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
• salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
• dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)

What does it mean when a baby, child or adult is water baptised in a Catholic Church; how are they different from a baby, child or adult attending CC Masses that has not been water baptised?
Baptism means that the one baptised receives new birth from above in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and that one dies to sin and rises to Life in Christ Jesus the Saviour. (Matthew 28:19; John 3:5; Romans 6:3-4) That meaning applies to infant and adult alike though the form of the baptismal ceremony differs in some details when baptism is administered to adults from when baptism is administered to infants. In the case of Infants baptism is administered after the parents (or those standing in for them for whatever good reasons they have for standing in) make affirmations regarding the upbringing of the child and make promises and affirmation on the child's behalf when asked to do so. In the case of adult baptism the promises and affirmations are made by the one about to be baptised in their own voice and on their own behalf.

The difference between the unbaptised attending mass and the baptised attending mass is this, the baptised have received baptism and their baptism means:

• being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
• having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
• the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
• enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
• salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
• dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)

The unbaptised have not received baptism and have not yet received all the things mentioned above; though it ought to be said, to avoid misunderstanding, that should the unbaptised who attend mass die for whatever reason yet were attending mass because they believe the things taught by the Catholic Church - the things taught in the holy scriptures, holy Tradition, and the magisterium of the Church on Earth - to the best of their knowledge and ability then they receive from God the graces the benefits of ordinary baptism by a supernatural gift which is often called "the baptism of desire" because they desire baptism but have not yet received it and circumstances prevented them from receiving baptism while they were among the Earthly living.

 

[MennoSota]

As one poster wrote (bold below, with minor corrections) Let's make sure we return to the topic and deal with the issue.

Since the topic is “water baptism”, I have to ask: Does the adult or infant really experience all of those things at the moment they are sprinkled, poured or dunked with/in water?

So...let us look at scripture to see if water baptism is mentioned.

Yes, the one baptised receives all the things listed; namely, their baptism means:

• being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)

• 
  No water baptism mentioned.
  John 3:1-8 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ The windblows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
  

  [*] having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)

  We note that in each story, God had chosen long before water baptism occurs. The sins have already been removed before baptism. Baptism, here, is symbolic.
  Acts 9:4-5,8,10-11,15 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
  Acts 22:12-16 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
  

  [*] the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)

  No baptism mentioned.
  Titus 3:1-7 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  
  

  [*] enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)

  Nothing about water baptism.
  Hebrews 6:1-8 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, and of instruction about washings,the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.
  

  [*] salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)

  Where is the water? Salvation here is earlier in what Christ has done. Whatever the immersion is, it symbolizes what Christ has done.
  1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also sufferedonce for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
  

  [*] dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)

  Where is the water?
  Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old selfwas crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

[MennoSota]

[/LIST]
[/COLOR]
What does it mean when a baby, child or adult is water baptised in a Catholic Church; how are they different from a baby, child or adult attending CC Masses that has not been water baptised?
Baptism means that the one baptised receives new birth from above in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and that one dies to sin and rises to Life in Christ Jesus the Saviour. (Matthew 28:19; John 3:5; Romans 6:3-4) That meaning applies to infant and adult alike though the form of the baptismal ceremony differs in some details when baptism is administered to adults from when baptism is administered to infants. In the case of Infants baptism is administered after the parents (or those standing in for them for whatever good reasons they have for standing in) make affirmations regarding the upbringing of the child and make promises and affirmation on the child's behalf when asked to do so. In the case of adult baptism the promises and affirmations are made by the one about to be baptised in their own voice and on their own behalf.

The difference between the unbaptised attending mass and the baptised attending mass is this, the baptised have received baptism and their baptism means:

• being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
• having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
• the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
• enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
• salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
• dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)

The unbaptised have not received baptism and have not yet received all the things mentioned above; though it ought to be said, to avoid misunderstanding, that should the unbaptised who attend mass die for whatever reason yet were attending mass because they believe the things taught by the Catholic Church - the things taught in the holy scriptures, holy Tradition, and the magisterium of the Church on Earth - to the best of their knowledge and ability then they receive from God the graces the benefits of ordinary baptism by a supernatural gift which is often called "the baptism of desire" because they desire baptism but have not yet received it and circumstances prevented them from receiving baptism while they were among the Earthly living..

This entire section is your church dogma that has no scriptural support. Stick verses with no connection to the statements next to the assertion of your church and the little lemmings will follow.
Thank you for sharing this MC. It clarifies why you and I will never see water baptism in the same light. For me, scripture and context override all church dogma. Church dogma must be changed when scripture dictates the change. For you, church dogma rules. All scripture is subservient to church dogma and is only useful for propping up the dogma of the church.
We have a fundamental disagreement that will never be rectified as long as you worship the church and it's words instead of the Creator and his words.

 

[Albion]

Right, John baptised with Water, Jesus baptises in the Spirit, since Jesus was baptised for remission of all sin, when we are baptised in his name we too are part of Jesus baptism with John and thus because he is Holy WE become Holy... Jesus never said to be baptised by water, he said to be baptised in his Name (covered in HIS name)...

What he said was that his Apostles should baptize people. And he also gave them the formula to use!

Please explain how they could do that...if they took no part in the baptism of converts but it was only some mental thing (baptism of the Holy Spirit).

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota

The entire section is your church dogma that has no scriptural support.

You have NOTHING in Scripture that remotely states what you do. NOTHING.


No, "Thou canst NOT Baptize any who hath not yet reached the mystical age of X (but you'll never be told what age that is)." Your Anti-Paedobaptism dogma invented by the radically synergistic Anabaptists that you echo

No, "Thou canst NOT baptize any who hath not publicly proven they have chosen Jesus as their personal Savior." Your Credobaptism dogma invented by the radical synergistic Anabaptists that you parrot.

No, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless every cell of their body is entirely immersed in and covered by water." You Immersion-Only dogma invented by the radical synergistic Anabaptists that you echo.

No, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they publicly prove they are among the unnamed few for whom Jesus died." Your invented dogma you've added to what the Anabaptists invented.

No, "Baptism is so stressed because it doth nothing whatsoever" The "Baptism accomplishes nothing" dogma invented by the radical synergistic Anabaptists that you parrot.





.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "eleven" in the ASV
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "eleven" in the ESV
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "eleven" in the KJV
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "eleven" in the NASB
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "fifty-seven" in the NAB
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "forty-eight" in the RSV
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "eighty-three" in the NRSV
It says it in the hand written note on page "one" and "thousand" and "and" and "one" and "hundred" and "and" and "sixty-four" in the CPDB


:smirk:

"I" AND "wonder" AND "how" AND "long" AND "it" AND "took" AND "you" AND "to AND "come" AND "up" AND "with" AND "that" AND "?" /NOT " :smirk: "

 

[Andrew]

What he said was that his Apostles should baptize people. And he also gave them the formula to use!

Please explain how they could do that...if they took no part in the baptism of converts but it was only some mental thing (baptism of the Holy Spirit).

By water, but the argument of sprinkling or dowsing misses the point, the water is a refreshing and symbolic ritual that makes you mentally aware that you are now baptised in Christ

 

[Albion]

Quite a reversal of what you wrote in the previous post, isn't that?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

This entire section is your church dogma that has no scriptural support. Stick verses with no connection to the statements next to the assertion of your church and the little lemmings will follow.
Thank you for sharing this MC. It clarifies why you and I will never see water baptism in the same light. For me, scripture and context override all church dogma. Church dogma must be changed when scripture dictates the change. For you, church dogma rules. All scripture is subservient to church dogma and is only useful for propping up the dogma of the church.
We have a fundamental disagreement that will never be rectified as long as you worship the church and it's words instead of the Creator and his words.

I'm not sure I understand the quizzical nature of responding to what might be called "types, figures or allusions" in scripture with denial that they can be such. Water must be mentioned or it is not water. Bapstism must be mentioned or it is not baptism. A camel must be mentioned or it is not a camel, and so on. Allegories abound, especially in the Epistles and pastoral letters precisely because that's what those who heard would have understood them to be - the rudiments were already understood. Calculus does not necessitate starting with basic algebra, nor do I need to pick up "Cat in the Hat" again to review basic English in order to read "Pilgrim's Progress"

 

[Andrew]

Quite a reversal of what you wrote in the previous post, isn't that?

The difference between johns baptism and Jesus baptism is beyond water, we dont get water baptised twice

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The difference between johns baptism and Jesus baptism is beyond water, we dont get water baptised twice

You've hit on something I'm not sure you realize. It is beyond water, but it involves water. And that's the difference that's separating so many of us, I think

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not sure I understand the quizzical nature of responding to what might be called "types, figures or allusions" in scripture with denial that they can be such. Water must be mentioned or it is not water. Bapstism must be mentioned or it is not baptism. A camel must be mentioned or it is not a camel, and so on. Allegories abound, especially in the Epistles and pastoral letters precisely because that's what those who heard would have understood them to be - the rudiments were already understood. Calculus does not necessitate starting with basic algebra, nor do I need to pick up "Cat in the Hat" again to review basic English in order to read "Pilgrim's Progress"

Baptizo simply means to immerse. Someone writing in greek would need to define the object being immersed as well as into what the object is being immersed. There is no reason to assume that every instance of the word baptizo used in scripture is referring to water as the object into which something is being immersed. There are times when the context tells us it is water, but there are other times when water is never indicated.
Second, some prooftexts never mention baptism or even alude to it. Why then would one use that text as an argument for baptism? To do so is to play very loose with scripture and attempt to force a dogma upon scripture.

 

[MennoSota]

You've hit on something I'm not sure you realize. It is beyond water, but it involves water. And that's the difference that's separating so many of us, I think

Does the biblical text support that it always involves water? The clear answer is...no...the Bible doesn't always connect immersion with water.

 

[Albion]

The difference between johns baptism and Jesus baptism is beyond water, we dont get water baptised twice

That kinda misses the point, doesn't it? But Imaginaryday2 gave a good response.

 

[MoreCoffee]

"I" AND "wonder" AND "how" AND "long" AND "it" AND "took" AND "you" AND "to AND "come" AND "up" AND "with" AND "that" AND "?" /NOT " :smirk: "

The idea took moments, the execution was several minutes long.

:smirk:

But it was fun

 

[MoreCoffee]

In how many threads did you read it?

I saw it in three but read only the first line or so

 

[MennoSota]

I saw it in three but read only the first line or so

So you read more than usual...

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you read more than usual...

More than is usual with your posts; the truth is that your usual posts are one liners at most.