Water Baptism

MennoSota

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Where does holy scripture teach what you wrote here; namely that baptism is given so that the saints might witness the community of believers that God has brought in to the body.


Where does holy scripture teach what you wrote here; namely that baptism is given so the world might know that we now walk as children of the King, not as children of rebellion.


Where do the holy scriptures teach what you wrote here; namely that baptism is given to the faithful so that they fulfil their call to go and make disciples and that baptism comes afterwards.

Read every instance of water baptism by the early church in Acts. The person being baptized is always already saved. There is always a witness who is saved and there is very often unsaved person's watching and observing. Read the book of Acts.
The great commission is in Matthew 28.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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I'm sorry if you cannot discern what I am saying. Let me know if you figure it out.
Keep telling yourself that I'm the problem.
 

MennoSota

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Keep telling yourself that I'm the problem.
I'm not the one who can't understand symbolic ceremonies and their use to teach remembrance. Shall I explain the symbolic remembrance of communion so you aren't clueless?
Now, go re-read what I wrote about baptism until you find a clue.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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I'm not the one who can't understand symbolic ceremonies and their use to teach remembrance. Shall I explain the symbolic remembrance of communion so you aren't clueless?
Now, go re-read what I wrote about baptism until you find a clue.
Neither of those Sacraments are symbolic! Christ delivers forgiveness of sins through both Baptism and the Lord's Supper. You're the clueless one who doesn't grasp these truths of Scripture then has the audacity to act like you're intellectually superior.

But please explain the "symbolic remembrance of Communion", when Scripture clearly says it is for the forgiveness of sins. Show us all how clueless you truly are. I'm not re-reading false teaching from you. That would be a waste of time.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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You aren't speaking truth. You pick up a Bible and can see what sin is and then you follow directions.

A dead mortal can pick up a bible and "see" what sin is, then declare he is not a sinner. The revelation of sin is of God. The following of direction follows the revelation - it is not of us, but of God
 

MennoSota

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Neither of those Sacraments are symbolic! Christ delivers forgiveness of sins through both Baptism and the Lord's Supper. You're the clueless one who doesn't grasp these truths of Scripture then has the audacity to act like you're intellectually superior.

But please explain the "symbolic remembrance of Communion", when Scripture clearly says it is for the forgiveness of sins. Show us all how clueless you truly are. I'm not re-reading false teaching from you. That would be a waste of time.
Was it the eating of bread and wine that would cleanse the many or was it Jesus death and blood that secured the covenant to forgive sins?
It was his death and blood.
Just as the Passover meal (sadir meal) was a remembrance of Egypt, so Jesus shed blood is a remembrance of atonement for the elect.
The meal itself was not magical. It did not save anyone. It did not forgive anyone. It was a meal, which Jesus established to remember what his death and blood accomplished as a covenant with his chosen people.

Matthew 26:26-29 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

You have created a mystical magic that is not supported in scripture. You have made symbolic events into magical moments. God does not dabble in magic in order to save. God does not need your incantations and rituals for him to secure his chosen people.
But, God has commissioned memorials because he knows we are short sighted and weak in memory. He thus ordains memorials for us in both communion and baptism so that we can remember the work he accomplished, entirely without our assistance.
 

atpollard

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Yes, the one baptised receives all the things listed; namely, their baptism means:
  • being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
  • having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
  • the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
  • enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
  • salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
  • dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)
Editorial note: in the text below the text crossed out is crossed out because it is inaccurate and the text shown in square brackets [ ] is added by the editor, namely me, to more accurately designate what is inaccurately called "services" - services occur only when no priest is available to offer the Mass on behalf of the gathered people of God and a service always occurs on Good Friday but services are not otherwise part of worship in a Catholic Church because in the Catholic Church religious worship is offered to God almighty in the mass - and ought to be called Masses because that is what Catholics offer to God in worship when they gather in church buildings to worship the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit according to the forms that Christ and the apostles taught the people of God to follow.




Baptism means that the one baptised receives new birth from above in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and that one dies to sin and rises to Life in Christ Jesus the Saviour. (Matthew 28:19; John 3:5; Romans 6:3-4) That meaning applies to infant and adult alike though the form of the baptismal ceremony differs in some details when baptism is administered to adults from when baptism is administered to infants. In the case of Infants baptism is administered after the parents (or those standing in for them for whatever good reasons they have for standing in) make affirmations regarding the upbringing of the child and make promises and affirmation on the child's behalf when asked to do so. In the case of adult baptism the promises and affirmations are made by the one about to be baptised in their own voice and on their own behalf.

The difference between the unbaptised attending mass and the baptised attending mass is this, the baptised have received baptism and their baptism means:
  • being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
  • having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
  • the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
  • enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
  • salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
  • dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)
The unbaptised have not received baptism and have not yet received all the things mentioned above; though it ought to be said, to avoid misunderstanding, that should the unbaptised who attend mass die for whatever reason yet were attending mass because they believe the things taught by the Catholic Church - the things taught in the holy scriptures, holy Tradition, and the magisterium of the Church on Earth - to the best of their knowledge and ability then they receive from God the graces the benefits of ordinary baptism by a supernatural gift which is often called "the baptism of desire" because they desire baptism but have not yet received it and circumstances prevented them from receiving baptism while they were among the Earthly living.

I have to admit that I honestly do not know what to say in response. I am familiar with the “Covenant Household” view of Baptism as the “new circumcision” that admits one into the Body of Christ (the true Church) as believed by many Presbyterians, but I never in my wildest dreams imagined that any local body of believers thought that they had the power to determine who received the Holy Spirit and Eternal Salvation based on who they chose to administer a sacrament to irrespective of the true heart of the recipient or the Predestination and calling of God.

You win the argument since all I can say is ... I respectfully, but emphatically disagree.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Was it the eating of bread and wine that would cleanse the many or was it Jesus death and blood that secured the covenant to forgive sins?
It was his death and blood.
Just as the Passover meal (sadir meal) was a remembrance of Egypt, so Jesus shed blood is a remembrance of atonement for the elect.
The meal itself was not magical. It did not save anyone. It did not forgive anyone. It was a meal, which Jesus established to remember what his death and blood accomplished as a covenant with his chosen people.

Matthew 26:26-29 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

You have created a mystical magic that is not supported in scripture. You have made symbolic events into magical moments. God does not dabble in magic in order to save. God does not need your incantations and rituals for him to secure his chosen people.
But, God has commissioned memorials because he knows we are short sighted and weak in memory. He thus ordains memorials for us in both communion and baptism so that we can remember the work he accomplished, entirely without our assistance.
It's Jesus' promise of the forgiveness of sins connected to the physical elements of bread and wine. I have not created a mystical fantasy or whatever you called it, I have cited a mystery found in Scripture.

Perhaps this excerpt from Luther's Small Catechism will help you to see the truth. Granted only God can cure your spiritual blindness, but perhaps this will plant a seed.

The Sacrament of the Altar
As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:
Our Lord Jesus Christ,*the same night in which He was betrayed,*took bread: and when He had given thanks,*He brake it,*and gave it to His disciples,*and said,*Take,*eat; this is My body,*which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.

After the same manner also He took the cup,*when He had supped,*gave thanks,*and gave it to them,*saying,*Take,*drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood,*which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye,*as oft as ye drink it,*in remembrance of Me.

What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words:*Given,*and shed for you,*for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely:*Given,*and shed for you,*for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Who,*then,*receives such Sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words:*Given,*and shed for you,*for the remission of sins.

But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words*For you*require altogether believing hearts.
 

MennoSota

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It's Jesus' promise of the forgiveness of sins connected to the physical elements of bread and wine. I have not created a mystical fantasy or whatever you called it, I have cited a mystery found in Scripture.

Perhaps this excerpt from Luther's Small Catechism will help you to see the truth. Granted only God can cure your spiritual blindness, but perhaps this will plant a seed.

The Sacrament of the Altar
As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and St. Paul, write thus:
Our Lord Jesus Christ,*the same night in which He was betrayed,*took bread: and when He had given thanks,*He brake it,*and gave it to His disciples,*and said,*Take,*eat; this is My body,*which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me.

After the same manner also He took the cup,*when He had supped,*gave thanks,*and gave it to them,*saying,*Take,*drink ye all of it. This cup is the new testament in My blood,*which is shed for you for the remission of sins. This do ye,*as oft as ye drink it,*in remembrance of Me.

What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words:*Given,*and shed for you,*for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.

How can bodily eating and drinking do such great things?

It is not the eating and drinking, indeed, that does them, but the words which stand here, namely:*Given,*and shed for you,*for the remission of sins. Which words are, beside the bodily eating and drinking, as the chief thing in the Sacrament; and he that believes these words has what they say and express, namely, the forgiveness of sins.

Who,*then,*receives such Sacrament worthily?
Fasting and bodily preparation is, indeed, a fine outward training; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words:*Given,*and shed for you,*for the remission of sins.

But he that does not believe these words, or doubts, is unworthy and unfit; for the words*For you*require altogether believing hearts.

Martin Luther was wrong.
In regard to communion, he struggled to leave Rome behind so he created a twist to Roman teaching that was still wrong. In this area the anabaptists were correct. They actually let scripture guide rather than tradition.
Now, are you done with the silly traditions of your denomination? Can we turn to scripture and let it be our guide or is that just something you refuse to do? Do you need tradition to rule over scripture?
Question: When Jesus instituted the memorial meal, did he actually cut out his flesh and sat "take eat?" Did he cut open a vein, drain a pint of blood, and say "drink my blood?"
No. It was...get ready...symbolic.
 

MoreCoffee

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I have to admit that I honestly do not know what to say in response. I am familiar with the “Covenant Household” view of Baptism as the “new circumcision” that admits one into the Body of Christ (the true Church) as believed by many Presbyterians,
So far so good. You are speaking about things that you evidently know and have some sympathy with even if you do not agree and do not believe it all.

but I never in my wildest dreams imagined that any local body of believers thought that they had the power to determine who received the Holy Spirit and Eternal Salvation based on who they chose to administer a sacrament
Here you cross into territory unfamiliar to you and hence mistakenly interpret was what written. But you are free to reject what you saw if you want to. That is always an option when one exercises free will to choose what one believes and what one rejects.

to irrespective of the true heart of the recipient or the Predestination and calling of God.
Here you cross into error of your own making and presumption about what said and meant in the post that was written to you and to which you replied.

You win the argument since all I can say is ... I respectfully, but emphatically disagree.

As always, you are free to choose what you believe and what you do not believe. That is the meaning of free will. You exercise it even if your theology denies it or interprets it in such a way as to eviscerate it.
 

YourTruthGod

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A dead mortal can pick up a bible and "see" what sin is, then declare he is not a sinner. The revelation of sin is of God. The following of direction follows the revelation - it is not of us, but of God

You are not making sense.

ANYONE who wants to be a child of God MUST get Jesus' teachings from the Bible and do what he says.

Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.

YOU MUST DO WHAT HE SAYS TO DO TO GET SAVED.

He came here to show us the way.

What you say is against the Truth.

You don't acknowledge Jesus teaching us that WE WILL NEVER ENTER UNLESS?

That is a teaching.

You can't read for yourself that you have to humble yourself and admit you are a sinner?
 

YourTruthGod

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Amen



Amen

You don't think you have to do anything to obey

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
 

YourTruthGod

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Is that what you tell yourself about everyone in this forum? I asked you one question and you dodged it. I'm really not the "stumped one" here. If my opinion about you is SO worthless, why validate it with a response?

Just listen to yourself. You don't have truth to go against me so you use the only thing you do have, lies about me and insults.
 

Josiah

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Waiting for the reference to the following Scriptures:


"Thou canst NOT give baptism to anyone unless and until they hath celebrated their "Xth" birthday (and you won't be told what birthday that is)." To substantiate the Anabaptist invention of Anti-Paedobaptim.

"Thou canst NOT give baptism to anyone unless and until they hath proven that they have faith in Jesus as their Savior." To substantiate the Anabaptist invention of Credobaptism.

"Thou canst NOT give baptism to anyone unless every cell of their body is entirely covered by water." To substantiate the Anabaptist invention of "immersion only"

"Thou canst NOT given baptism to anyone unless and until they prove to all that they are among the few unnamed persons for whom Jesus died." To substantiate the radical Calvinist/Baptist invention.


The Anabaptist dogma is simply a serious of prohibitions. And it seems none of them can be found in Scripture. They were invented by the Anabaptists in the late 16th Century, NOT because of Scripture (there are no Scriptures for any of this) but rather in order to "jibe" with their radical synergism and Pelagianism.






.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Just listen to yourself. You don't have truth to go against me so you use the only thing you do have, lies about me and insults.
So you didn't dodge the question I asked you? I asked you a question, you didn't answer it and instead talked about other things. Everyone can see that's what happened. The only liar here is you.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Martin Luther was wrong.
In regard to communion, he struggled to leave Rome behind so he created a twist to Roman teaching that was still wrong. In this area the anabaptists were correct. They actually let scripture guide rather than tradition.
Now, are you done with the silly traditions of your denomination? Can we turn to scripture and let it be our guide or is that just something you refuse to do? Do you need tradition to rule over scripture?
Question: When Jesus instituted the memorial meal, did he actually cut out his flesh and sat "take eat?" Did he cut open a vein, drain a pint of blood, and say "drink my blood?"
No. It was...get ready...symbolic.
I've given you Scripture and you deny it. I give you plain teaching from the man who freed the Scriptures from Roman hands, the Scriptures you deny, and you ignore him. I'm not the one following silly teachings. I used to believe as you do. Then my eyes were opened to see the truth. One day I hope the same happens for you.
 

MennoSota

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I've given you Scripture and you deny it. I give you plain teaching from the man who freed the Scriptures from Roman hands, the Scriptures you deny, and you ignore him. I'm not the one following silly teachings. I used to believe as you do. Then my eyes were opened to see the truth. One day I hope the same happens for you.
I don't deny scripture. I provided you the entire passage and showed you why your one verse is not about baptism. You claim it is about baptism because you want it to fit your narrative rather than let scripture change your narrative. Prooftexting out of context is a dangerous thing. It leads to false teaching, dogmas and cults. It is best to let the text speak plainly rather than force something into it, which you have clearly done with John 3.
Second, just because a person rightly understands justification by faith, not works, does not mean he understands all of scripture. Martin Luther never was able to reconcile with scripture in regard to communion and baptism. He wasn't able to clear himself of the dogma from tradition.
 
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