Water Baptism

[MoreCoffee]

Since the topic is “water baptism”, I have to ask:

Does the adult or infant really experience all of those things at the moment they are sprinkled, poured or dunked with/in water?

Yes, the one baptised receives all the things listed; namely, their baptism means:

• being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
• having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
• the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
• enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
• salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
• dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)

Editorial note: in the text below the text crossed out is crossed out because it is inaccurate and the text shown in square brackets [ ] is added by the editor, namely me, to more accurately designate what is inaccurately called "services" - services occur only when no priest is available to offer the Mass on behalf of the gathered people of God and a service always occurs on Good Friday but services are not otherwise part of worship in a Catholic Church because in the Catholic Church religious worship is offered to God almighty in the mass - and ought to be called Masses because that is what Catholics offer to God in worship when they gather in church buildings to worship the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit according to the forms that Christ and the apostles taught the people of God to follow.

What does it mean when a baby, child or adult is water baptized in a Roman Catholic Church; how are they different from a baby, child or adult attending RCC services [Masses] that has not been water baptized?

Baptism means that the one baptised receives new birth from above in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and that one dies to sin and rises to Life in Christ Jesus the Saviour. (Matthew 28:19; John 3:5; Romans 6:3-4) That meaning applies to infant and adult alike though the form of the baptismal ceremony differs in some details when baptism is administered to adults from when baptism is administered to infants. In the case of Infants baptism is administered after the parents (or those standing in for them for whatever good reasons they have for standing in) make affirmations regarding the upbringing of the child and make promises and affirmation on the child's behalf when asked to do so. In the case of adult baptism the promises and affirmations are made by the one about to be baptised in their own voice and on their own behalf.

The difference between the unbaptised attending mass and the baptised attending mass is this, the baptised have received baptism and their baptism means:

• being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5)
• having their sins washed away (Acts 22:16)
• the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)
• enlightenment and tasting the good things of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4-5)
• salvation like that of the eight who survived the destruction of the world by flood in Noah's day (1Peter 3:21)
• dying with Christ and rising with Christ in new life (Romans 6:3-4)

The unbaptised have not received baptism and have not yet received all the things mentioned above; though it ought to be said, to avoid misunderstanding, that should the unbaptised who attend mass die for whatever reason yet were attending mass because they believe the things taught by the Catholic Church - the things taught in the holy scriptures, holy Tradition, and the magisterium of the Church on Earth - to the best of their knowledge and ability then they receive from God the graces the benefits of ordinary baptism by a supernatural gift which is often called "the baptism of desire" because they desire baptism but have not yet received it and circumstances prevented them from receiving baptism while they were among the Earthly living.

 

[MennoSota]

The sad part of this topic is that there is actually an important discussion to be had on the difference between “Believers baptism” and “Covenant baptism” that has nothing to do with sprinkling vs dunking, little to do with the question of babies in the households mentioned in scripture and everything to do with what baptism is and means and who is in the Church (body of Christ on the Earth).

Few people bother to get beyond the issue of biblical precedent.

Just for fun a question to point at the real issue ... Are there unbelievers in the Church (the Body of Christ)?


(I am half tempted to argue FOR infant baptism just to show you that it is about something more fundamental than whether there were babies in the households in Acts.)

An excellent question.
Is there really a difference between believers baptism and covenant baptism?
I only see the Spirit baptizing us into Christ, which establishes the new covenant between us and God. Water baptism expresses this truth in a physical, symbolic way to all the other saints who rejoice that another dead person has been made alive with Christ and God has established his covenant with that person, which bonds us in community as the body of Christ.
There is nothing magical about the water or the practice of water baptism. It does not magically save anyone.
But, I am sure some people will fight for their magic baptism anyway.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

An excellent question.
Is there really a difference between believers baptism and covenant baptism?
I only see the Spirit baptizing us into Christ, which establishes the new covenant between us and God. Water baptism expresses this truth in a physical, symbolic way to all the other saints who rejoice that another dead person has been made alive with Christ and God has established his covenant with that person, which bonds us in community as the body of Christ.
There is nothing magical about the water or the practice of water baptism. It does not magically save anyone.
But, I am sure some people will fight for their magic baptism anyway.

Is there anything "magical" to use your term, about invoking the Trinity? Every baptism I've attended or have been a part of, the recipient was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

 

[Arsenios]

Can you find a person
who God has not given faith
who the Apostles and early disciples baptize
while still unsaved?

All of them in the NT from the time of John the Baptist until now...

Salvation is now IN CHRIST...

Until we are IN Christ, we are not saved...

And the Bible is clear...

We are Baptized INTO Christ...

And the Apostles Baptize by Christ's command...

Need the Scriptures showing this??


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I only see the Spirit baptizing us into Christ

Not in Scripture...

Christians Baptize in the Spirit...

Clearly in Scripture...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is there anything "magical" to use your term, about invoking the Trinity? Every baptism I've attended or have been a part of, the recipient was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Some who prefer to regard baptism as a symbol with no reality attached thereunto will mockingly refer to the spiritual benefits of baptism as magic. Being born from above is a spiritual transaction that cannot be seen so such people mockingly call it magic and having sins washed away is a spiritual transaction so such people mockingly call it magic such is true also of dying to sin and rising to new life in Christ which is a spiritual transaction which such people mockingly call magic. They speak like atheists when they mock what is not visible as magic because is that not what atheists call every miracle and every Christian belief that involves the supernatural and the spiritual hence there may be good reason for the similarity in vocabulary between atheists and those who mock Christian baptism as having magical effects.

But just as atheists can repent and be converted to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and come to him for healing and salvation so too can those who mock the spiritual as magic. And if they mock because they are imitating the vocabulary of atheists without themselves having become atheists then they can repent of their attitude and God will forgive them. Prayer for them is also worth offering to God because no one ought to be content to mock baptism and its spiritual effects by calling the spiritual gifts that God gives in baptism magic.

So it is a good thing worth doing to pray to the Lord our God for those who mock no matter what the motive may be for doing it and in our prayers to ask for wisdom, goodness, a pure heart, and truth to be given to those in need and because we are all in need we ought also to add our own need for these good gifts from God to the prayer. And because we are in so much need for help in these matters it is a good thing to ask Blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and the people of God here on earth to add their prayers for these things to ours so that the Lord our God may hear with favour and compassion the voices of so many.

It is a fearful thing to mock what the Holy Spirit does in baptism by calling it magic, the Lord Jesus Christ warned that every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven human beings but the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next. And the Lord spoke those warning words when the scribes said that the works that the Lord Jesus Christ did were done by means of the devil - And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, He is possessed by Beelzebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons. And he called them to him and said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house. Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin — for they were saying, He has an unclean spirit. (Mark 3:22-30)

I expect that what I have written will not be received as a warning by those who mock baptism by calling its spiritual effects magic but I pray that it is received and taken to heart and that the mockery will cease. God willing it will cease for the sake of us all.

 

[YourTruthGod]

He did so and in doing so initiated the Church in Ethiopia into Christ...

That is how the Faith first came to Ethiopia...

Ever see the Churches there?

Cruciform shaped...

Carved out of solid rock...

One in a cave atop a mountain over a rope bridge, icons painted into the rock inside...

Monasteries on islands in a large lake...


Arsenios

I am not impressed with big beautiful buildings anymore.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Just a little excursus from discussionary rigors into Apostolic Ethiopian Christianity...

https://www.google.com/url?] sa=i&...aw19N2fgicjrSeGwiyGhKe2Z&ust=1556307340605688

https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/18/gallery/

https://youtu.be/Lo_KycIyHAg

Is that a tomb or a church? They said there are dead man remains in there.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Your ignorance of scripture is impressive.

What you believe and teach is nowhere anywhere in the Bible. In fact, it goes against the Bible, the written Word of God.

Give one scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

God does not save unbelievers.

So that disproves Lutherans and Calvinists.

It also disproves infant baptisms.

 

[MennoSota]

All of them in the NT from the time of John the Baptist until now...

Salvation is now IN CHRIST...

Until we are IN Christ, we are not saved...

And the Bible is clear...

We are Baptized INTO Christ...

And the Apostles Baptize by Christ's command...

Need the Scriptures showing this??


Arsenios

So magic water places you in Christ.
Nope, your spin on scripture is weak.
God makes us alive, with Christ (immersed, baptized) far before water is ever found.

 

[MennoSota]

Not in Scripture...

Christians Baptize in the Spirit...

Clearly in Scripture...


Arsenios

Apostles participated in signs of Spirit filling. Different from being immersed by the Spirit into Christ.
You and your magic water...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Apostles participated in signs of Spirit filling. Different from being immersed by the Spirit into Christ.
You and your magic water...

before you go too far with the mockery remember what the Lord said - all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

 

[MennoSota]

before you go too far with the mockery remember what the Lord said - all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

I point out YOUR foolishness, MC. It's funny how your pride now wants to warn me about the Holy Spirit, when I am pointing out that it is the Spirit who immerses us into Christ, not water. I'm not the one worshipping water, wine and crackers as the magic for salvation. I'm actually pointing you toward God, the giver of life, not some ceremonies that God always intended as memorials in remembrance of.
Get your head on straight, MC. You focus on the material symbols and miss God's work, which He has accomplished without your help needed. Get over yourself.

 

[Arsenios]

Some who prefer to regard baptism as a symbol with no reality attached thereunto will mockingly refer to the spiritual benefits of baptism as magic. Being born from above is a spiritual transaction that cannot be seen so such people mockingly call it magic and having sins washed away is a spiritual transaction so such people mockingly call it magic such is true also of dying to sin and rising to new life in Christ which is a spiritual transaction which such people mockingly call magic. They speak like atheists when they mock what is not visible as magic because is that not what atheists call every miracle and every Christian belief that involves the supernatural and the spiritual hence there may be good reason for the similarity in vocabulary between atheists and those who mock Christian baptism as having magical effects.

But just as atheists can repent and be converted to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and come to him for healing and salvation so too can those who mock the spiritual as magic. And if they mock because they are imitating the vocabulary of atheists without themselves having become atheists then they can repent of their attitude and God will forgive them. Prayer for them is also worth offering to God because no one ought to be content to mock baptism and its spiritual effects by calling the spiritual gifts that God gives in baptism magic.

So it is a good thing worth doing to pray to the Lord our God for those who mock no matter what the motive may be for doing it and in our prayers to ask for wisdom, goodness, a pure heart, and truth to be given to those in need and because we are all in need we ought also to add our own need for these good gifts from God to the prayer. And because we are in so much need for help in these matters is it a good thing to ask Blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and the people of God here on earth to add their prayers for these things to ours so that the Lord our God may hear with favour and compassion the voices of so many.

It is a fearful thing to mock what the Holy Spirit does in baptism by calling it magic, the Lord Jesus Christ warned that every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven human beings but the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next. And the Lord spoke those warning words when the scribes said that the works that the Lord Jesus Christ did were done by means of the devil - And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, He is possessed by Beelzebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons. And he called them to him and said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house. Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin — for they were saying, He has an unclean spirit. (Mark 3:22-30)

I expect that what I have written will not be received as a warning by those who mock baptism by calling its spiritual effects magic but I pray that it is received and taken to heart and that the mockery will cease. God willing it will cease for the sake of us all.

A very important post...

Thank-you M/C...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I am not impressed with big beautiful buildings anymore.

A building cannot save...

But if it is built for the sake of God...

Built in prayer and worship...

Consecrtated in love and joy...

Even a modest one such as the one I serve within...

And is used only for the Service of Christ...

When you enter into it...

Just as when you encounter one of God's Holy Ones...

You will know you are in the Presence of God...

And such a building can be destroyed...

And it can be rebuilt...


Arsenios

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

I point out YOUR foolishness, MC. It's funny how your pride now wants to warn me about the Holy Spirit, when I am pointing out that it is the Spirit who immerses us into Christ, not water. I'm not the one worshipping water, wine and crackers as the magic for salvation. I'm actually pointing you toward God, the giver of life, not some ceremonies that God always intended as memorials in remembrance of.
Get your head on straight, MC. You focus on the material symbols and miss God's work, which He has accomplished without your help needed. Get over yourself.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Water OR the Holy Spirit? Why is God prohibited from using both to deliver forgiveness of sins to the one receiving Baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Why do you believe in two baptisms? Believer's Baptism and Spirit Baptism?

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Some who prefer to regard baptism as a symbol with no reality attached thereunto will mockingly refer to the spiritual benefits of baptism as magic. Being born from above is a spiritual transaction that cannot be seen so such people mockingly call it magic and having sins washed away is a spiritual transaction so such people mockingly call it magic such is true also of dying to sin and rising to new life in Christ which is a spiritual transaction which such people mockingly call magic. They speak like atheists when they mock what is not visible as magic because is that not what atheists call every miracle and every Christian belief that involves the supernatural and the spiritual hence there may be good reason for the similarity in vocabulary between atheists and those who mock Christian baptism as having magical effects.

But just as atheists can repent and be converted to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and come to him for healing and salvation so too can those who mock the spiritual as magic. And if they mock because they are imitating the vocabulary of atheists without themselves having become atheists then they can repent of their attitude and God will forgive them. Prayer for them is also worth offering to God because no one ought to be content to mock baptism and its spiritual effects by calling the spiritual gifts that God gives in baptism magic.

So it is a good thing worth doing to pray to the Lord our God for those who mock no matter what the motive may be for doing it and in our prayers to ask for wisdom, goodness, a pure heart, and truth to be given to those in need and because we are all in need we ought also to add our own need for these good gifts from God to the prayer. And because we are in so much need for help in these matters is it a good thing to ask Blessed Mary ever Virgin, all the angels and saints and the people of God here on earth to add their prayers for these things to ours so that the Lord our God may hear with favour and compassion the voices of so many.

It is a fearful thing to mock what the Holy Spirit does in baptism by calling it magic, the Lord Jesus Christ warned that every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven human beings but the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next. And the Lord spoke those warning words when the scribes said that the works that the Lord Jesus Christ did were done by means of the devil - And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, He is possessed by Beelzebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons. And he called them to him and said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house. Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin — for they were saying, He has an unclean spirit. (Mark 3:22-30)

I expect that what I have written will not be received as a warning by those who mock baptism by calling its spiritual effects magic but I pray that it is received and taken to heart and that the mockery will cease. God willing it will cease for the sake of us all.

You were doing good right up until you brought Mary and the saints into it.

 

[Arsenios]

Is that a tomb or a church? They said there are dead man remains in there.

Matthew 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

The monks serving the Church carve our a hole in the rock wall where they sleep...
When they go to sleep for the last time, that opening is sealed with mortar...

The relics of a Holy Person are Holy...
The body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit...
The death of a Holy One is Life...
"To live is Christ - To die is gain."

An Altar cannot be consecrated without a relic of a Martyr...
The Divine Liturgy in the early Faith was often served...
On the body of one who had been martyred for Christ...
Martyrdom is the bearing of the witness of Christ...

Thank you for watching the video...
They are just buildings...
Visible witness to what cannot be seen...
And Holy Places for the Gathering of the dispersed in worship...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So magic water places you in Christ.
Nope, your spin on scripture is weak.
God makes us alive, with Christ (immersed, baptized) far before water is ever found.

We are Called by God...
BEFORE...
We are Justified by God...
BEFORE...
We are Glorified by God...

We become catechumens learning the Faith...
Then we are Baptized into Christ...
Then we grow into Maturity in Christ...

We are Called...
We are Justified...
We are Glorified...


Paul says the same thing, Remember?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Apostles participated in signs of Spirit filling. Different from being immersed by the Spirit into Christ.
You and your magic water...

Where is your "magic scripture" to establish "Spirit filling participation" by Apostolic Baptism into Christ?

Suddenly no Holy Scripture?


Arsenios