Was the Messiah prophesied to heal the blind according to the OT?

NathanH83

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Jerome often tells us what and why he did what he did. If you had read the sources you would know that.

More than likely, the original Hebrew in Isaiah 7:14 probably said “bethulah” which means virgin. There’s good evidence suggesting that to be the case.
 

RichWh1

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Isaiah 7 uses the word 'almah; not bethulah'.
The word almah is rare—usually translated as "maiden" it appears only seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures, three of these in the plural and four in the singular.
In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word almah into the Greek word parthenos . According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, parthenos means virgin.
 

NathanH83

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Isaiah 7 uses the word 'almah; not bethulah'.
The word almah is rare—usually translated as "maiden" it appears only seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures, three of these in the plural and four in the singular.
In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word almah into the Greek word parthenos . According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, parthenos means virgin.

Yes, I know that today’s Hebrew Masoretic text says almah. But there’s good evidence suggesting that the original Hebrew said bethulah.
 

Origen

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More than likely, the original Hebrew in Isaiah 7:14 probably said “bethulah” which means virgin. There’s good evidence suggesting that to be the case.
Really! Provide the Hebrew manuscript evidence.
 

Origen

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Jerome is unreliable and a heretic who sided with the synagogue of satan
That is only your opinion. Jerome knew and\or studied Latin, Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church condemn him as a heretic, rather they consider him a saint. His achievements have been hailed by Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant scholars. I firmly believe that those scholars know more about this subject than you.
 
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NathanH83

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What ‘evidence’??


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Well, just the way that Bethulah is normally translated.

For example:

In Genesis 24, it says Rebekah was a beautiful young virgin. The Hebrew Masoretic says Bethulah (Hebrew for virgin) and the Greek Septuagint translates it as Parthenos (Greek for virgin).

Rebekah:
Bethulah = Parthenos


Then in Esther, it says that the king sent out his servants to round up a bunch of beautiful young virgins, of whom Esther was one. Again, the Hebrew Masoretic says Bethulah (Hebrew for virgin) and the Greek Septuagint says Parthenos (Greek for virgin).

Esther:
Bethulah = Parthenos


Then in Isaiah 37, he refers to the nation of Judah as the virgin daughter of Zion. Again, the Hebrew says Bethulah (Hebrew for virgin), and the Greek Septuagint says Parthenos (Greek for virgin).

Isaiah 37:
Bethulah = Parthenos


So here we have THREE examples of Parthenos being a translation of Bethulah.

Now, in Isaiah 7:14, it gives a significant prophecy about the Messiah. It says, “Behold, the Lord will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child.”

Now, this is prophetically speaking about the Virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus. Matthew quotes it in his gospel and used the word Parthenos. He says that the Virgin Mary giving birth to Jesus is a fulfillment of this verse in Isaiah.

The Greek Septuagint in Isaiah 7:14 says Parthenos. So you would think that the Hebrew Masoretic says Bethulah, right? But it doesn’t. Instead, it says “Almah” which simply means a young woman, and has nothing to do with virginity.

Isaiah 7:
Parthenos = Almah???


Now, wait a minute. We’ve got all these other examples with Rebekah and Esther, where Bethulah is translated as Parthenos. But the very moment it comes to a very significant Messianic prophecy, suddenly the Hebrew says something different?

And that doesn’t seem fishy to you?

This absolutely REEKS of foul play!

It sounds to me that the original Hebrew said Bethulah, and that’s why the Septuagint translated it as Parthenos. But after the time of Christ, the Jews changed the Hebrew to Almah.

But that’s not all.

In the 2nd century AD, Jewish proselytes (converts) like Theodotion and Aquila made newer Greek translations. These were men who were born Greeks and converted to Judaism. And their versions did NOT say “Parthenos” in Isaiah 7:14 like the Greek Septuagint does. But rather, their versions said “Neesis”, which is a Greek word that simply means “young woman” and has nothing to do with virginity.

Not only did the Jews change the Hebrew, but they’ve also got converts making new Greek versions as well!

So early church fathers such as Irenaus and Justin Martyr defended the Greek Septuagint, and condemned the new translations made by Theodotion and Aquila. They insisted that “Parthenos” was the correct word, not “Neesis” as these new translations said.

In fact, Justin Martyr got into an argument with a Jew named Trypho. And they argued over this very passage. Trypho the Jew argued that it ought to be translated “the young woman shall be with child” whereas Justin argued that it ought to be “the virgin shall be with child.”

And Justin defended the “translation of the 70 elders who were with Ptolemy” (talking about the Greek Septuagint), and condemned the versions of Theodotion and Aquila. Irenaeus also condemned the versions of Theodotion and Aquila.

Not only that, but Justin accused the Jews of taking many things out of the Bible. He told Trypho that the Jews removed passages from Esdras (Ezra), they removed things from Psalms, and they also removed things from Jeremiah. And Justin defended the version of the Greek Septuagint, and accused the Jews of corrupting their own Hebrew copies.

Irenaeus also defended the Septuagint.

Look at what Justin says:

“But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy king of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy…”

“Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled.”

“And Justin said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following…..”

“And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following…..”

“And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies of the Scriptures in the synagogues of the Jews, (for it is only a short time since they were cut out),…”


“And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David….”

From:
St. Justin Martyr
“Dialogue with Trypho the Jew”
CHAPTER LXXI

And Justin listed off and quoted all these passages, which he accused the Jews of removing from their Hebrew scriptures.

Eusebius; writing in the 300’s said in his work “The Chronicon” that the Jewish Hebrew text currently being used by the Jews is untrustworthy and unreliable. He said the Greek Septuagint should be used, and that the Septuagint is the only version that is approved by the church of Christ.

Just look at some of what Eusebius says in his Chronicon:

“….we must agree that the numbers of years in the Jewish version are incorrect….”

“Indeed, it is absolutely clear that the dates in the Hebrew version of the Jews are incorrect…”

“And it is possible to show that the Jewish version is untrustworthy in another way….”

“Therefore, because it has been definitely established that the Septuagint version was translated from the original, unadulterated Hebrew scriptures, it is reasonable for us to use that version for this chronicle - especially since it is the only version that is approved by the church of Christ, which has spread throughout the whole world, and it is the version that was handed down to us from the beginning by the apostles and disciples of Christ.”


From: Eusebius’ Chronicon

Time and time again, we keep seeing early church fathers defending the accuracy of the Greek Septuagint, claiming it to be an accurate translation of the original, unadulterated Hebrew scriptures, and then also claiming that the Jewish Hebrew text that is currently being used by the Jews is a corrupted and unreliable Hebrew text, with passages taken out, and numbers changed.

So, when you take all these things into consideration, it seems that the most likely conclusion is that the ORIGINAL Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14 probably said “Bethulah”, and that’s why the Septuagint translated it as “Parthenos.”

But after the time of Christ, the unbelieving Jews probably removed the word “Bethulah” and replaced it with the word “Almah”. And then they made newer Greek translations to reflect this change.
 
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RichWh1

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Quoting passages with the word’bethulah’ in them is not external or internal evidence, just cross references.
In Genesis 24 where Rebekah is called bethulah did you know it was the last time she had been called bethulah? After that she was referred to as almah.
The reason is because she at first was not betrothed to Isaac then after she became betrothed she was only called Almah, betrothed virgin.


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NathanH83

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That is only your opinion. Jerome knew and\or studied Latin, Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church condemn him as a heretic, rather they consider him a saint. His achievements have been hailed by Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant scholars. I firmly believe that those scholars know more about this subject than you.

Jerome received criticism from all over the world for his Latin translation. The church in Carthage almost rioted when they listened to the reading of his translation of Jonah. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
 

RichWh1

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What do I think? I think you quotes verses with the word 'Bethulah' in it and did no exegetical study. Just a word study, which is not proof, just a word study!

While you referenced all the bethulah passages you forgot the Almah passages! Why?
 

NathanH83

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What do I think? I think you quotes verses with the word 'Bethulah' in it and did no exegetical study. Just a word study, which is not proof, just a word study!

While you referenced all the bethulah passages you forgot the Almah passages! Why?

That’s all you got?
 

RichWh1

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Seems you don’t have an argument seeing you are just trying to intimidate!
You haven’t dealt with my post concerning Genesis 24 and Rebekah being called both Bethulah and Almah! !


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Origen

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Jerome received criticism from all over the world for his Latin translation.
Your feeble attempt to avoid what I actually stated and change the subject is hysterically funny.

I stated:

(1) Jerome knew and\or studied Latin, Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Aramaic. That is a fact.

(2) Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church condemn him as a heretic, rather they consider him a saint. That is a fact.

(3) His achievements have been hailed by Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant scholars. That a fact.

The church in Carthage almost rioted when they listened to the reading of his translation of Jonah.
None of that changes my three points and therefore is moot.

(1) Jerome knew and\or studied Latin, Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Aramaic. That is a fact.

(2) Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church condemn him as a heretic, rather they consider him a saint. That is a fact.

(3) His achievements have been hailed by Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant scholars. That a fact.

I don’t know what you’re talking about.
At least I can read.
 
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NathanH83

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Seems you don’t have an argument seeing you are just trying to intimidate!
You haven’t dealt with my post concerning Genesis 24 and Rebekah being called both Bethulah and Almah! !


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What about it? When the Hebrew calls Rebekah an Almah, does the Septuagint translate it as Parthenos? If not, then what’s your point?

The point that I was making is that when the Septuagint says Parthenos, that’s a pretty good indication that the original Hebrew probably said Bethulah.

Can you show at least 3 examples of the Hebrew saying Almah, and the Septuagint translating it as Parthenos?

What about all the other stuff I talked about? What about Justin Martyr and Eusebius and their claims the Hebrew is corrupted and the Septuagint better reflects the original Hebrew?

I thought for sure you might bring up the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is supposedly dated to before the time of Christ (supposedly). And it says Almah in Isaiah 7:14.

But I doubt that their date for the Scroll is really accurate, because it’s also missing the phrase “and recovery of sight to the blind” in Isaiah 61:1. So yea, kind of sounds like it’s been tampered with to me. I don’t trust their dating methods anyway.

So even though I don’t actually have the “original” Hebrew that existed back in 250 BC, I think that the Septuagint provides compelling evidence that the original Hebrew probably said “Bethulah.”

And the writings of early church fathers and the claims they made makes this case even more compelling. So I think there’s a lot of good evidence suggesting that Bethulah is probably what was originally written.

Besides, how is it a “sign” for a young woman to be with child? It’s a sign for a virgin to be with child. Young women give birth to children every day. That’s not a sign.
 

NathanH83

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Your feeble attempt to avoid what I actually stated and change the subject is hysterically funny.

I stated:

(1) Jerome knew and\or studied Latin, Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Aramaic. That is a fact.

(2) Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church condemn him as a heretic, rather they consider him a saint. That is a fact.

(3) His achievements have been hailed by Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant scholars. That a fact.


None of that changes my three points and therefore is moot.

(1) Jerome knew and\or studied Latin, Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Aramaic. That is a fact.

(2) Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church condemn him as a heretic, rather they consider him a saint. That is a fact.

(3) His achievements have been hailed by Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant scholars. That a fact.


At least I can read.

Andrew said that Jerome was a heretic. And many early church fathers were very upset by his translation.

Jerome wanted to remove the Apocryphal books (the books HE called Apocrypha). But the church made him keep them in, after having multiple church councils discussing it.

Afterwards, Jerome was questioned about it, and he back-tracked his previous claims, saying that he didn’t personally reject them as canon, but just that the Jews rejected them.

So, yea, he submitted to church authority and back-tracked his claims that the Apocryphal books don’t belong. That’s why Catholics don’t brand him a heretic.

But his previous claims about the Apocrypha (the claims he took back after multiple church councils) were indeed heretical claims. He just doesn’t get branded as a heretic because he took it back and submitted to church authority.

Jerome did some good. He even fixed some mistakes even in the Septuagint, like when it comes to the rhinoceros in Deut. 33:17.

But he also did some harm, by including the corrupted timeline in Genesis 11.

And anyone who introduces any type of corruption into the Bible is guilty of at least some heresy, even if they did some good.

The church of Carthage was VERY upset by his corruption of the Book of Jonah (or, at least what they considered to be a corruption).
 

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Andrew said that Jerome was a heretic. And many early church fathers were very upset by his translation.
Indeed some were but no one said he was a heretic to my knowledge. If you know of some by all means name them.

Afterwards, Jerome was questioned about it, and he back-tracked his previous claims, saying that he didn’t personally reject them as canon
Cite the primary sources. WHERE EXACTLY does Jerome make those claims? Be specific.

He just doesn’t get branded as a heretic because he took it back and submitted to church authority.
There is no evidence that is true. Cite the primary sources where that is stated. Where in the ancient record are these things recorded? You are just making it up as you go. You are fabricating events.

And anyone who introduces any type of corruption into the Bible is guilty of at least some heresy, even if they did some good.
That is your opinion and neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church would agree with you.


It is always amusing how you follow same doomed pattern. You have no primary sources, you misstate and exaggerate, and make demonstrably false claims. Your version of events and claims are nothing more than a fantasy concocted by your imagination.
 
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Andrew

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Indeed some were but no one said he was a heretic to my knowledge. If you know of some by all means name them.


Cite the primary sources. WHERE EXACTLY does Jerome make those claims? Be specific.


There is no evidence that is true. Cite the primary sources where that is stated. Where in the ancient record are these things recorded? You are just making it up as you go. You are fabricating events.


That is your opinion and neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church would agree with you.


It is always amusing how you follow same doomed pattern. You have no primary sources, you misstate and exaggerate, and make demonstrably false claims. Your version of events and claims are nothing more than a fantasy concocted by your imagination.
Rufinus implies that Jerome was a heretic for siding with Barabbas and forsaking the tradition of the Apostles
 

NathanH83

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Indeed some were but no one said he was a heretic to my knowledge. If you know of some by all means name them.


Cite the primary sources. WHERE EXACTLY does Jerome make those claims? Be specific.


There is no evidence that is true. Cite the primary sources where that is stated. Where in the ancient record are these things recorded? You are just making it up as you go. You are fabricating events.


That is your opinion and neither the Catholic nor Orthodox church would agree with you.


It is always amusing how you follow same doomed pattern. You have no primary sources, you misstate and exaggerate, and make demonstrably false claims. Your version of events and claims are nothing more than a fantasy concocted by your imagination.

The Septuagint isn’t a primary source?
 

NathanH83

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Rufinus implies that Jerome was a heretic for siding with Barabbas and forsaking the tradition of the Apostles

Rufinus said that Jerome was siding with Barabbas?
 
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