Was the Messiah prophesied to heal the blind according to the OT?

[Andrew]

Of course Jesus quoted what He as God originally had written as His Word and neither text conflicts so there shouldn't be this big issue due to translation semantics. The meaning is there.

A missing line is a big deal, the LXX includes the line that the LORD reads and the Masoretic drops it, no excuses, the LXX is older and more accurate yet somehow Nathan and I are the problem for pointing this out.

The Lord IS right and the LXX is right but the Masoretic is wrong for deleting the line entirely.

Rest assure that we believe beyond any single doubt thay the Gospel is the incorruptible Word of God, we are also to expose evils and when the sons of the devil try to make Jesus out to be a liar by removing what he quotes as "written" in Scripture then Godspeed to the children of Israel who suffer this stumbling block for I am far from removing it even for a single Christian at Christianity Haven.

My goal is NOT to shake the faith but to stir up the Spirit of Truth

2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"

 

[RichWh1]

480 years in the Hebrew is counted from the the time the Israelites left Egypt

440 yeas of LXX is from the time the Israelites entered the promised land (40 years less than when they left Egypt)

Event	Period
Wilderness wanderings	40 years
Destroying 7 nations in Canaan	?
Between destroying 7 nations and the judges	450 years
Judges	?
Saul5	40 years

Given that David ruled for 40 years (2 Sa 5:4), here’s the maths6:


-970 + 4 years (Solomon’s 4th regnal year) – 40 years (David) – 40 years (Saul) – 450 years (whatever happened between destroying 7 nations in Canaan and the arrival of the Judges) – 40 years (wilderness) = 1536 BCE

Time period	Event	Reference
3 years	Solomon’s 4th year	1 Ki 6:1
40 years	David’s reign	1 Ki 2:11
40 years	Saul’s reign	1 Sa 13:1
30 years (est.)	Samuel’s leadership	1 Sa 7:14-15
40 years	Eli’s judgeship	1 Sa 4:18
20 years	Samson’s judgeship	Jdg 15:20
40 years	Philistine oppression	Jdg 13:1
8 years	Abdon’s judgeship	Jdg 12:14
10 years	Elon’s judgeship	Jdg 12:11
7 years	Ibzan’s judgeship	Jdg 12:9
6 years	Jephthah’s judgeship	Jdg 12:7
18 years	Ammonite oppression	Jdg 10:8
22 years	Jair’s judgeship	Jdg 10:3
23 years	Tola’s judgeship	Jdg 10:2
3 years	Abimelech’s rulership	Jdg 9:22
40 years	Gideon’s deliverance and peace	Jdg 8:28
7 years	Midian’s oppression	Jdg 6:1
40 years	Peace after Deborah and Barak’s victory	Jdg 5:31
20 years	Jabin’s oppression	Jdg 4:3
80 years	Ehud’s deliverance and peace	Jdg 3:30
18 years	Moabite oppression	Jdg 3:14
40 years	Peace after Othniel’s victory	Jdg 3:11
8 years	Mesopotamian oppression	Jdg 3:8
20 years (est.)	End of conquest to death of Joshua and the elders	Jdg 2:6–7
7 years (est.)	Joshua’s conquest until the tribal allotments	Jos 14:7-10
40 years	Time in the wilderness	Nu 14:33
~630 years

1 Kings 6:1 (LXX)	1406 BCE
1 Kings 6:1 (MT)	1446 BCE
Acts 13:17-21	1536 BCE
Narratives	1596 BCE

Far from there being a single “biblical” date for the Exodus, we can extract from the Bible (at least) 4 different dates. And, by definition, each of them are “biblical”.

“biblical” dates should not be relied on when creating chronologies



Biblical Dates

 

[Andrew]

480 years in the Hebrew is counted from the the time the Israelites left Egypt

440 yeas of LXX is from the time the Israelites entered the promised land (40 years less than when they left Egypt)

Event	Period
Wilderness wanderings	40 years
Destroying 7 nations in Canaan	?
Between destroying 7 nations and the judges	450 years
Judges	?
Saul5	40 years

Given that David ruled for 40 years (2 Sa 5:4), here’s the maths6:


-970 + 4 years (Solomon’s 4th regnal year) – 40 years (David) – 40 years (Saul) – 450 years (whatever happened between destroying 7 nations in Canaan and the arrival of the Judges) – 40 years (wilderness) = 1536 BCE

Time period	Event	Reference
3 years	Solomon’s 4th year	1 Ki 6:1
40 years	David’s reign	1 Ki 2:11
40 years	Saul’s reign	1 Sa 13:1
30 years (est.)	Samuel’s leadership	1 Sa 7:14-15
40 years	Eli’s judgeship	1 Sa 4:18
20 years	Samson’s judgeship	Jdg 15:20
40 years	Philistine oppression	Jdg 13:1
8 years	Abdon’s judgeship	Jdg 12:14
10 years	Elon’s judgeship	Jdg 12:11
7 years	Ibzan’s judgeship	Jdg 12:9
6 years	Jephthah’s judgeship	Jdg 12:7
18 years	Ammonite oppression	Jdg 10:8
22 years	Jair’s judgeship	Jdg 10:3
23 years	Tola’s judgeship	Jdg 10:2
3 years	Abimelech’s rulership	Jdg 9:22
40 years	Gideon’s deliverance and peace	Jdg 8:28
7 years	Midian’s oppression	Jdg 6:1
40 years	Peace after Deborah and Barak’s victory	Jdg 5:31
20 years	Jabin’s oppression	Jdg 4:3
80 years	Ehud’s deliverance and peace	Jdg 3:30
18 years	Moabite oppression	Jdg 3:14
40 years	Peace after Othniel’s victory	Jdg 3:11
8 years	Mesopotamian oppression	Jdg 3:8
20 years (est.)	End of conquest to death of Joshua and the elders	Jdg 2:6–7
7 years (est.)	Joshua’s conquest until the tribal allotments	Jos 14:7-10
40 years	Time in the wilderness	Nu 14:33
~630 years

1 Kings 6:1 (LXX)	1406 BCE
1 Kings 6:1 (MT)	1446 BCE
Acts 13:17-21	1536 BCE
Narratives	1596 BCE

Far from there being a single “biblical” date for the Exodus, we can extract from the Bible (at least) 4 different dates. And, by definition, each of them are “biblical”.

“biblical” dates should not be relied on when creating chronologies



Biblical Dates

Dates aside we have 2 sources for our OT

LXX

MASORETIC

Jerome spent his life's work trying to fix the contradictions between the several LXX transcripts and the proto masoretic Hebrew that his unbelieving Rabbi passed on to him, he ended up filling in holes in the Masoretic with the LXX and vice versa while also deleting lines and entire books from what the church was used to, this began great controversy and confusion within the Church.

It's really a tragedy because he was only doing what the Pope had him do, in the end the Pope was unhappy, Jerome wasn't too happy, his best buddy wrote him nasty letters and Jerome's response was basically "take it up with the church of Rome!"

 

[NathanH83]

480 years in the Hebrew is counted from the the time the Israelites left Egypt

440 yeas of LXX is from the time the Israelites entered the promised land (40 years less than when they left Egypt)

”In the four hundred fortieth year after the children of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the second month,”
3 Kingdoms 6:1, OSB)

What you claim doesn’t match what it says.

 

[NathanH83]

Masoretic Text	LXX
46:20 To Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim, whom Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, bore to him. (NRSV)	46:20 To Joseph in the land of Egypt were born sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, whom Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of Heliopolis (=On), bore to him. And to Manasseh were born sons, whom the Syrian concubine bore him, Machir. And Machir became the father of Gilead. And the sons of Manasseh’s brother Ephraim, the brother of Manasseh: Sutalaam and Taam. And the sons of Sutalaam: Edem

The lists in Gen 46 and Num 26 (MT and LXX) are connected, since both contain similar names in virtually the same order (although the Numbers text continues into later generations)



The overall similarity suggests that the five additional names in the LXX of Genesis 46:20 are original to that text, since the other names in the lists are common to both as well.



Num. 26:28 The sons of Joseph by their families: Manasseh and Ephraim. 29 The sons of Manasseh: of Machir, the family of the Machirites; and Machir fathered Gilead: of Gilead, the family of the Gileadites. 30 These are the sons of Gilead: of [l]Iezer, the family of the Iezerites; of Helek, the family of the Helekites; 31 and of Asriel, the family of the Asrielites; and of Shechem, the family of the Shechemites; 32 and of Shemida, the family of the Shemidaites; and of Hepher, the family of the Hepherites. These are the generations of Joseph, not just his 2 sons.


Concerning the 70 vs the 75 people Jacob had, the LXX includes the sons of Joseph and their offspring.

The Greek Septuagint says that Joseph had 9 sons, not just Ephraim and Manasseh.

You say that they’re not sons, but rather grandsons, as mentioned in the genealogies. I’m not sure why you think that, because that’s not possible.

Do the math:

Joseph was 30 when he was taken out of prison and given a wife, who bore him Ephraim and Manasseh.

Then, after the 7 years of abundance, Joseph was about 37. Then 2 years in to the 7-year famine, Joseph’s family came down to Egypt. He would have been 39 or 40 at this time.

So at the time Jacob and all Israel came down into Egypt, Joseph’s oldest son Manasseh was no more than 9 or 10 years old.

But, you think that Joseph had grandchildren at this time? Manasseh, a 9 or 10 year old boy had children????

I’m really not following your logic or your math.

No, Joseph had 9 sons, meaning there were 7 other sons younger than Ephraim and Manasseh, according to the LXX.

 

[RichWh1]

The entire Bible cannot be taken literally and some of the writings are not literal. Trying to make everything fit into a nice bundle is not the work of a scholar. What I claim is the Bible is the word of God and nothing less! Any translation has the possibility of error! Trying to produce error is an error in and of itself

 

[RichWh1]

The Greek Septuagint says that Joseph had 9 sons, not just Ephraim and Manasseh.

You say that they’re not sons, but rather grandsons, as mentioned in the genealogies. I’m not sure why you think that, because that’s not possible.

Do the math:

Joseph was 30 when he was taken out of prison and given a wife, who bore him Ephraim and Manasseh.

Then, after the 7 years of abundance, Joseph was about 37. Then 2 years in to the 7-year famine, Joseph’s family came down to Egypt. He would have been 39 or 40 at this time.

So at the time Jacob and all Israel came down into Egypt, Joseph’s oldest son Manasseh was no more than 9 or 10 years old.

But, you think that Joseph had grandchildren at this time? Manasseh, a 9 or 10 year old boy had children????

I’m really not following your logic or your math.

No, Joseph had 9 sons, meaning there were 7 other sons younger than Ephraim and Manasseh, according to the LXX.

When the Israelites said they were sons of Abraham, were they saying that he was their direct father? In the Hebrew language, anyone of the lineage of a person is considered a 'son' of that person! The same is true for the sons and grandsons of Joseph!! Who is Joseph's family? Just his 2 sons? I don't think you are reading the text

 

[Andrew]

The entire Bible cannot be taken literally and some of the writings are not literal. Trying to make everything fit into a nice bundle is not the work of a scholar. What I claim is the Bible is the word of God and nothing less! Any translation has the possibility of error! Trying to produce error is an error in and of itself

True for Christians because we understand Scripture and the saving Gospel but for Israel if the peer pressure alone doesn't bind them, they will still have a hard time taking Jesus seriously when He blows His very announcement in the synagogue by quoting a line that isn't found in the Hebrew. Not only that but notice how no one at the scene corrects him, they just all accept it, meaning that the entire scenario is a total farce.

 

[NathanH83]

When the Israelites said they were sons of Abraham, were they saying that he was their direct father? In the Hebrew language, anyone of the lineage of a person is considered a 'son' of that person! The same is true for the sons and grandsons of Joseph!! Who is Joseph's family? Just his 2 sons? I don't think you are reading the text

How did Manasseh have sons when he was only 9 years old?

 

[RichWh1]

When he grew up he had children!!!


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[NathanH83]

When he grew up he had children!!!


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When it says that Jacob’s family had 75 persons (66 coming down from Canaan), it’s saying that this is the number of people in his family at the time they came down.

Your “solution” to the problem is to have a 9-year old Manasseh having multiple children before his 10th birthday. That just doesn’t work.

There really is no other way around it. The Hebrew Masoretic and the Greek Septuagint are different from one another. This means that one of them was changed. You cannot pretend that they are somehow compatible. One is right, and the other is wrong.

The question is, which one gets it right?

 

[NathanH83]

When the Israelites said they were sons of Abraham, were they saying that he was their direct father? In the Hebrew language, anyone of the lineage of a person is considered a 'son' of that person! The same is true for the sons and grandsons of Joseph!! Who is Joseph's family? Just his 2 sons? I don't think you are reading the text

Even Jacob himself attests to the fact that Joseph had other sons younger than Ephraim and Manasseh.

When Jacob adopted Ephraim and Manasseh, he said they shall be recognized as his own. But Joseph’s OTHER sons will be recognized as Joseph’s.

Now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are. But your children that you have fathered after them shall be yours; they shall be called by the names of their brothers in their inheritance.
Genesis 48:5-6 (NASB)

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 48:5-6 - New American Standard Bible

Now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon are. But your children that you have fathered after them shall be yours; they shall be called by the names of their brothers in their...

www.biblegateway.com

Look at it in the Young’s Literal translation. Young’s Literal preserves the tense of the original Hebrew. And it puts it in the past tense:

And now, thy two sons, who are born to thee in the land of Egypt, before my coming unto thee to Egypt, mine they are; Ephraim and Manasseh, as Reuben and Simeon they are mine; and thy family which thou hast begotten after them are thine; by the name of their brethren they are called in their inheritance.
-Genesis 48:5-6 (YLT)

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 48:5-6 - Young's Literal Translation

`And now, thy two sons, who are born to thee in the land of Egypt, before my coming unto thee to Egypt, mine they [are]; Ephraim and Manasseh, as Reuben and Simeon they are mine; and thy family which thou hast begotten after them are thine; by the name of their brethren they are called in their...

www.biblegateway.com

Notice how it puts it in the past tense. “Hast begotten” -past tense.

Even Jacob himself attests to the fact that Joseph had other sons younger than Ephraim and Manasseh, which had already been born to him.

And that’s exactly what the Greek Septuagint says. It says that Joseph had 7 other sons younger than Ephraim and Manasseh. 9 sons total.

It’s not talking about Joseph’s grandchildren. It’s talking about his actual sons.

 

[Lamb]

The entire Bible cannot be taken literally and some of the writings are not literal. Trying to make everything fit into a nice bundle is not the work of a scholar. What I claim is the Bible is the word of God and nothing less! Any translation has the possibility of error! Trying to produce error is an error in and of itself

This!! ^^^^ Well said.

 

[Origen]

Dates aside we have 2 sources for our OT

False! We have others translations of the O.T. for example the Syriac and Coptic.

MASORETIC

Also we have manuscripts from the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the masoretic text.

MASORETIC

Jerome spent his life's work trying to fix the contradictions between the several LXX transcripts and the proto masoretic Hebrew that his unbelieving Rabbi passed on to him, he ended up filling in holes in the Masoretic with the LXX and vice versa while also deleting lines and entire books from what the church was used to, this began great controversy and confusion within the Church.

False! There was no masoretic text in the 4th century. The masoretes started work ca. 6th century A.D. Consequently Jerome was not filling in any holes. You do like to make it up as you go.

Who were the Masoretes? | GotQuestions.org

Who were the Masoretes? When and why did the Masoretes create the Masoretic Text?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Andrew]

False! We have others translations of the O.T. for example the Syriac and Coptic.


Also we have manuscripts from the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the masoretic text.


False! There was no masoretic text in the 4th century. The masoretes started work ca. 6th century A.D. Consequently Jerome was not filling in any holes. You do like to make it up as you go.

Who were the Masoretes? | GotQuestions.org

Who were the Masoretes? When and why did the Masoretes create the Masoretic Text?

www.gotquestions.org

Proto-Masoretic

 

[Andrew]

False! We have others translations of the O.T. for example the Syriac and Coptic.


Also we have manuscripts from the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the masoretic text.


False! There was no masoretic text in the 4th century. The masoretes started work ca. 6th century A.D. Consequently Jerome was not filling in any holes. You do like to make it up as you go.

Who were the Masoretes? | GotQuestions.org

Who were the Masoretes? When and why did the Masoretes create the Masoretic Text?

www.gotquestions.org

Not filling any holes you say?? HAHAHA!!
What about VIRGIN? Oh but lets call her "young maiden" because that makes for a miraculous birth

 

[Andrew]

Jews will give you plenty of irregularities in our Christian Bible OT Masoretic, they even say our Masoretic is corrupted

 

[Origen]

Not filling any holes you say?? HAHAHA!!
What about VIRGIN? Oh but lets call her "young maiden" because that makes for a miraculous birth

Jerome often tells us what and why he did what he did. If you had read the sources you would know that.

 

[Origen]

Jews will give you plenty of irregularities in our Christian Bible OT Masoretic, they even say our Masoretic is corrupted

I don't care what they do. I care about the facts, the evidence.

 

[Andrew]

Jerome often tells us what and why he did what he did. If you had read the sources you would know that.

Jerome is unreliable and a heretic who sided with the synagogue of satan