Uvalde Discussion

[Lees]

A lot of people had responsibilities that didn't happen and on that we can all agree. But the person who was ultimately responsible was the shooter who wanted children dead.

I didn't expect my prayer thread to turn into a debate Let's continue to pray for those families affected.

With all due respect Ma'am, the responsibilities didn't just 'not happen'. People failed in exercising their responsibility. They failed due to their cowardice. And now they try and hide it.

The shooter and the Law enforcement were equally responsible for the deaths of those children. One did it, and others did nothing to stop it.

What do you pray when you pray for those familes whose children were allowed to be executed? What do you pray?

Lees

 

[Lamb]

With all due respect Ma'am, the responsibilities didn't just 'not happen'. People failed in exercising their responsibility. They failed due to their cowardice. And now they try and hide it.

The shooter and the Law enforcement were equally responsible for the deaths of those children. One did it, and others did nothing to stop it.

What do you pray when you pray for those familes whose children were allowed to be executed? What do you pray?

Lees

What do I pray? I pray that God comforts the families and allows them to heal. We're Christians. We have God who is our great Comforter.

 

[Lees]

What do I pray? I pray that God comforts the families and allows them to heal. We're Christians. We have God who is our great Comforter.

Of course we have God. And He can sustain them, if they are Christian. Understand I am not saying not to pray. But what to pray?

I think of, as you say, 'healing'. But I don't think there is any healing from this. And what parent wants to be healed from the outrage for the murders committed by the shooter and the police in abondoning them.

The Uvalde police and law enforcement present that day would love for the parents to be healed and not say anything more. It's like someone slapping you in the face and then immediately asking you to forgive them. Well....maybe I will forgive....but at least let the sting where off.

I don't know what to pray for them. I just pray for them. The facts of this event get worse and sadder every day. On Court TV yesterday, they revealed that the students saw the police when they came in and the students called out to them....only to watch them retreat. How does a parent heal with that thought in their mind?

Better pray for justice. I guarntee you everyone, from the police chief on down, is developing thier story to pass the blame to someone else and cover their backside. Pray for criminal charges to be filed against the police, for dereliction of duty and negligent homocide. Or maybe even manslaughter, depending what else is learned. If you or I were negligent on whatever job we do, and someone died, that is what would happen to us.

Personally I think they should fire the whole Uvalde police department and set up a temporary law enforcement till replacements come in. Are these the people you want to answer your call for help? Of course not.

Maybe that would go a long way towards some sort of healing...but I doubt it.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Of course we have God. And He can sustain them, if they are Christian. Understand I am not saying not to pray. But what to pray?

I think of, as you say, 'healing'. But I don't think there is any healing from this. And what parent wants to be healed from the outrage for the murders committed by the shooter and the police in abondoning them.

The Uvalde police and law enforcement present that day would love for the parents to be healed and not say anything more. It's like someone slapping you in the face and then immediately asking you to forgive them. Well....maybe I will forgive....but at least let the sting where off.

I don't know what to pray for them. I just pray for them. The facts of this event get worse and sadder every day. On Court TV yesterday, they revealed that the students saw the police when they came in and the students called out to them....only to watch them retreat. How does a parent heal with that thought in their mind?

Better pray for justice. I guarntee you everyone, from the police chief on down, is developing thier story to pass the blame to someone else and cover their backside. Pray for criminal charges to be filed against the police, for dereliction of duty and negligent homocide. Or maybe even manslaughter, depending what else is learned. If you or I were negligent on whatever job we do, and someone died, that is what would happen to us.

Personally I think they should fire the whole Uvalde police department and set up a temporary law enforcement till replacements come in. Are these the people you want to answer your call for help? Of course not.

Maybe that would go a long way towards some sort of healing...but I doubt it.

Lees

I prefer to pray for healing as I said. Parents need some comfort from God and only He can provide that type of comfort at this point.

When my daughter was in high school, something bad happened to her and I forgave the lady who damaged my child. It can take years to heal but to pray for healing is not a bad thing.

 

[Lees]

I prefer to pray for healing as I said. Parents need some comfort from God and only He can provide that type of comfort at this point.

When my daughter was in high school, something bad happened to her and I forgave the lady who damaged my child. It can take years to heal but to pray for healing is not a bad thing.

I understand. Of course it is not a bad thing to pray for healing. I just think some things are impossible to heal from. You may get farther away from it, the pain become less sharp over time. But it never goes away.

I'm sorry to hear of what happened to your daughter. I hope it was not a permanent damage. But I know at the high school age, it can be.

But, I will admit, I have a very vengeful spirit. And I don't apologize for it. I don't believe it is wrong. For me to take vengeance myself is wrong. But for me to ask God to do it for me, I think, is Scriptural. Is it not?

Jesus said, (Matt. 18:6) "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Paul said, (2 Timothy 4:14) "Alexander the coppeersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works."

We don't know how many of those children at Uvalde were children of God. But some were. If not all. God their Father and Jesus seems to be interested in others offending them. Paul seems to be praying for God to exact justice on one who did him evil.

God already has the shooter. But there is justice yet to be dealt out to the police who turned their back on these children.

I personally don't see how there can be any healing for the parents without justice for what the police did. That is my prayer.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I understand. Of course it is not a bad thing to pray for healing. I just think some things are impossible to heal from. You may get farther away from it, the pain become less sharp over time. But it never goes away.

I'm sorry to hear of what happened to your daughter. I hope it was not a permanent damage. But I know at the high school age, it can be.

But, I will admit, I have a very vengeful spirit. And I don't apologize for it. I don't believe it is wrong. For me to take vengeance myself is wrong. But for me to ask God to do it for me, I think, is Scriptural. Is it not?

Jesus said, (Matt. 18:6) "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Paul said, (2 Timothy 4:14) "Alexander the coppeersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works."

We don't know how many of those children at Uvalde were children of God. But some were. If not all. God their Father and Jesus seems to be interested in others offending them. Paul seems to be praying for God to exact justice on one who did him evil.

God already has the shooter. But there is justice yet to be dealt out to the police who turned their back on these children.

I personally don't see how there can be any healing for the parents without justice for what the police did. That is my prayer.

Lees

Asking God to take vengeance does not seem very Christ-like.

You can pray to God for justice and let His will be done but not according to your will. You admit to having a vengeful spirit and you aren't repentant. You might want to pray on that.

 

[Lees]

Asking God to take vengeance does not seem very Christ-like.

You can pray to God for justice and let His will be done but not according to your will. You admit to having a vengeful spirit and you aren't repentant. You might want to pray on that.

I have hesitated to respond to you because i didn't want to respond in haste.

Why is my asking God to bring justice, or take vengeance, not Christ-like? Isn't God a God of vengeance. (Deut. 32:35) (Rom. 12:19) Isn't justice and vengeance the same thing? Or is God wrong in seeking vengeance?:

If I have the Spirit of God in me, and God is a God of vengeance, why do I need to repent?

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I have hesitated to respond to you because i didn't want to respond in haste.

Why is my asking God to bring justice, or take vengeance, not Christ-like? Isn't God a God of vengeance. (Deut. 32:35) (Rom. 12:19) Isn't justice and vengeance the same thing? Or is God wrong in seeking vengeance?:

If I have the Spirit of God in me, and God is a God of vengeance, why do I need to repent?

Lees

You specifically wrote here that you're asking for people to lose their jobs.

Think about their children who might not have food on the table because of that?

 

[Lees]

You specifically wrote here that you're asking for people to lose their jobs.

Think about their children who might not have food on the table because of that?

I just don't see why that must come into play. Of course there is cause and result in everything we do.

When the police arrest a man, they don't consider that. When a judge sentences a man, they don't consider that, depending on the crime.

My point was certainly about God's attribute of vengeance. Many believers only see that we are not to take vengeance into our own hands. To the point that they view vengeance as wrong. But it isn't wrong. It just belongs to God to execute.

And since I have the Spirit of God in me, why is it wrong for me to sence and desire vengeance on a wrong being done? Why is it wrong for me to pray to God for it?

Wrongs were done by Law enforcement in Uvalde that contributed to the deaths of many children. It's my prayer that all involved in that, receive the justice deserved.

Personally, I think losing one's job is getting off light. They certainly demonstrated they shouldn't be in that job. My opinion.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I just don't see why that must come into play. Of course there is cause and result in everything we do.

When the police arrest a man, they don't consider that. When a judge sentences a man, they don't consider that, depending on the crime.

My point was certainly about God's attribute of vengeance. Many believers only see that we are not to take vengeance into our own hands. To the point that they view vengeance as wrong. But it isn't wrong. It just belongs to God to execute.

And since I have the Spirit of God in me, why is it wrong for me to sence and desire vengeance on a wrong being done? Why is it wrong for me to pray to God for it?

Wrongs were done by Law enforcement in Uvalde that contributed to the deaths of many children. It's my prayer that all involved in that, receive the justice deserved.

Personally, I think losing one's job is getting off light. They certainly demonstrated they shouldn't be in that job. My opinion.

Lees

My point is that you're praying for God to specifically do something to someone that could result in the harm of someone else who is innocent. And you don't feel shame for that.

 

[Lees]

My point is that you're praying for God to specifically do something to someone that could result in the harm of someone else who is innocent. And you don't feel shame for that.

No, I don't.

Because I am not praying that God hurt the innocent.

If God takes vengeance on a person or persons, without my prayer involved, was He wrong? Because some innocent family member will be affected?

If I pray that God take vengeance upon the guilty, how can that be wrong?

I know...we must just 'love them'. Why do we even put anyone in jail or give them the death penalty? Surely they just need to be loved. (sarcasim) That is the perverted view of love today.

What was Paul praying for with Alexander the coppersmith? (2 Tim. 4:14)

Lees

 

[Lamb]

No, I don't.

Because I am not praying that God hurt the innocent.

If God takes vengeance on a person or persons, without my prayer involved, was He wrong? Because some innocent family member will be affected?

If I pray that God take vengeance upon the guilty, how can that be wrong?

I know...we must just 'love them'. Why do we even put anyone in jail or give them the death penalty? Surely they just need to be loved. (sarcasim) That is the perverted view of love today.

What was Paul praying for with Alexander the coppersmith? (2 Tim. 4:14)

Lees

Ah, I see, you believe that God is out to get man instead of redeeming him.

 

[Lamb]

I split some of the posts from my Prayer Thread since that area is not supposed to have debate.

 

[Lees]

I split some of the posts from my Prayer Thread since that area is not supposed to have debate.

I understand.

Ah, I see, you believe that God is out to get man instead of redeeming him.

Your statement is a broad over generalization and I don't think you really believe that of me.

Was God out to get man instead of redeem him when He destroyed all but 8 souls with the Flood? No. But, He did a lot of 'getting man' at that time.

Was God out to get man when He destroyed Israel with the Assyrians...Judah with the Babylonians....Jerusalem with the Romans....instead of redeeming him. No. but he did a lot of 'getting man' at those times.

When God instituted the death penalty in (Gen. 9:6), to be exercised by man, did that mean God was not interested in mans redeemption? Of course not.

Did that mean that those men who exercised that death penalty didn't believe in the love of God, or the mercy of God? Of course not. Mercy and love demonstrated at the expence of righteous punishment is neither mercy or love. It is a perversion of justice.

As I said earlier, all the law enforcement present that day in Uvalde are calling people, going up the chain of command, rubbing elbows with political high ups, all getting their backsides covered and their story straight. So that when the final investigation is done, everyone will be exonorated and some called even heroes.

Oh, they will say how terrible it was, and that some mistakes were made but could not have been forseen at that time. The chief of Police will probably get a raise and clip for his radio so he can have a gun and radio at the same time.

And, of course, we just must get more gun laws. What for? The shooter could have had a single shot 22 and done the same thing with the time he had. No gun laws stop a bad man. Only a good man can stop a bad man.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

I understand.


Your statement is a broad over generalization and I don't think you really believe that of me.

Was God out to get man instead of redeem him when He destroyed all but 8 souls with the Flood? No. But, He did a lot of 'getting man' at that time.

Was God out to get man when He destroyed Israel with the Assyrians...Judah with the Babylonians....Jerusalem with the Romans....instead of redeeming him. No. but he did a lot of 'getting man' at those times.

When God instituted the death penalty in (Gen. 9:6), to be exercised by man, did that mean God was not interested in mans redeemption? Of course not.

Did that mean that those men who exercised that death penalty didn't believe in the love of God, or the mercy of God? Of course not. Mercy and love demonstrated at the expence of righteous punishment is neither mercy or love. It is a perversion of justice.

As I said earlier, all the law enforcement present that day in Uvalde are calling people, going up the chain of command, rubbing elbows with political high ups, all getting their backsides covered and their story straight. So that when the final investigation is done, everyone will be exonorated and some called even heroes.

Oh, they will say how terrible it was, and that some mistakes were made but could not have been forseen at that time. The chief of Police will probably get a raise and clip for his radio so he can have a gun and radio at the same time.

And, of course, we just must get more gun laws. What for? The shooter could have had a single shot 22 and done the same thing with the time he had. No gun laws stop a bad man. Only a good man can stop a bad man.

Lees

I'm not sure why you brought into the conversation about the death penalty by the courts. That's not even what we're talking about.

Once Jesus died on the cross for us, we have been reconciled to God. He's not going to punish us because of Jesus.

Concerning the Old Testament and the demands of God for men to kill, He was setting aside His peoples from whom the line of the Savior would come. Now the Savior has come.

There is justice here on earth and we have our judicial systems. But that is different than praying to God for someone to have something bad happen to them, which is what you're doing. You want revenge.

 

[Lees]

I'm not sure why you brought into the conversation about the death penalty by the courts. That's not even what we're talking about.

Once Jesus died on the cross for us, we have been reconciled to God. He's not going to punish us because of Jesus.

Concerning the Old Testament and the demands of God for men to kill, He was setting aside His peoples from whom the line of the Savior would come. Now the Savior has come.

There is justice here on earth and we have our judicial systems. But that is different than praying to God for someone to have something bad happen to them, which is what you're doing. You want revenge.

Well, I'm not sure why you brought up 'redemption', when that was not what we were talking about either. Salvation has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Our judicial systems are in place because of (Gen. 9:6). Because of God.

All the examples I gave were in response to your accusation of me that I didn't believe God was out to redeem man but instead was out to get man. The death penalty was an example of God giving to man the responsibility of judicial governing over man. It didn't affect God's plan of redeemption. As did neither the flood, or the judgements against Israel and Judah and Jerusalem.

I'm not praying that something 'bad' happen. I'm praying for justice concerning the actions of law enforcement in Uvalde that day.

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Well, I'm not sure why you brought up 'redemption', when that was not what we were talking about either. Salvation has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Our judicial systems are in place because of (Gen. 9:6). Because of God.

All the examples I gave were in response to your accusation of me that I didn't believe God was out to redeem man but instead was out to get man. The death penalty was an example of God giving to man the responsibility of judicial governing over man. It didn't affect God's plan of redeemption. As did neither the flood, or the judgements against Israel and Judah and Jerusalem.

I'm not praying that something 'bad' happen. I'm praying for justice concerning the actions of law enforcement in Uvalde that day.

Lees

I brought up the cross because it is exactly what is needed for this conversation. God is not punishing us because of the cross. You want God to punish someone.

God will allow consequences to happen here on earth, but He isn't the cause of bad things happening to us. He is loving and merciful and we have been reconciled to Him through the cross.

Now you're trying to change things by saying you don't want something bad to happen to those policemen, but having them fired is considered bad in my opinion. It's bad for them and their families, isn't it?

Whatever the American judicial system decides to do is what will happen, but it isn't a result of God punishing someone for a sinful action. Our sins were taken to the cross and forgiven.

 

[Lees]

I brought up the cross because it is exactly what is needed for this conversation. God is not punishing us because of the cross. You want God to punish someone.

God will allow consequences to happen here on earth, but He isn't the cause of bad things happening to us. He is loving and merciful and we have been reconciled to Him through the cross.

Now you're trying to change things by saying you don't want something bad to happen to those policemen, but having them fired is considered bad in my opinion. It's bad for them and their families, isn't it?

Whatever the American judicial system decides to do is what will happen, but it isn't a result of God punishing someone for a sinful action. Our sins were taken to the cross and forgiven.

Redeeption and salvation had/has nothing to do with what we were talking about. If a man goes out and robs a store, even if he is a Christian, he will go to jail. Just because Christ died for him doesn't discount his going to jail.

Carla Faye Tucker was executed in Texas in 1998 for double murder. And she had become a Christian in prison. And though many in prison claim that, she had the testimony of many guards and prison officials that spoke of her ministry while in prison, in support of her getting a presidential pardon. I remember the interviews with her on TV as her execution date was getting near. And I am convinced of her salvation.

But the President did not grant a pardon and she was executed. And that was a right decision.

I am not changing anything. The desire for justice is not 'bad'. It is good. If some of those Uvalde police lose their jobs or go to jail, that is not bad, it is good. What is bad is what was allowed to be done to those children.

Your conflating salvation with secular judicial actions is causing confusion. God established man's authority in exercising laws over man in (Gen. 9:6). That pertained to mankind period. Saved or not.

Your last statement just isn't true, and so many things need to be said concerning it, but not now. But remember this. (Rom. 13:1-4)

Lees

 

[Lamb]

Redeeption and salvation had/has nothing to do with what we were talking about. If a man goes out and robs a store, even if he is a Christian, he will go to jail. Just because Christ died for him doesn't discount his going to jail.

Carla Faye Tucker was executed in Texas in 1998 for double murder. And she had become a Christian in prison. And though many in prison claim that, she had the testimony of many guards and prison officials that spoke of her ministry while in prison, in support of her getting a presidential pardon. I remember the interviews with her on TV as her execution date was getting near. And I am convinced of her salvation.

But the President did not grant a pardon and she was executed. And that was a right decision.

I am not changing anything. The desire for justice is not 'bad'. It is good. If some of those Uvalde police lose their jobs or go to jail, that is not bad, it is good. What is bad is what was allowed to be done to those children.

Your conflating salvation with secular judicial actions is causing confusion. God established man's authority in exercising laws over man in (Gen. 9:6). That pertained to mankind period. Saved or not.

Your last statement just isn't true, and so many things need to be said concerning it, but not now. But remember this. (Rom. 13:1-4)

Lees

Your initial post stated that you wanted GOD to choose to have those policemen lose their jobs. That's the point of this conversation. NOT what men will do in the justice system. So, let's get that cleared up asap.

God is not punishing us because of Christ and praying to God to have men lose their jobs because of what they did is you forcing your will onto God.

 

[Albion]

You specifically wrote here that you're asking for people to lose their jobs.

Think about their children who might not have food on the table because of that?

Is it defensible to take the position that someone who willfully violated the terms of his employment, who failed to even try to save the lives of children entrusted to his care, not at the least be let go from his job for incompetence or dereliction of duty and replaced by someone else who WILL "protect and serve" as expected??

If it is, then what criminal or incompetent, no matter how consequential his misdeeds, couldn't rest assured that his misdoings will be allowed to continue...because the loss of his job might damage the standard of living of his relatives??