Universal Atonement - Part 2

[Lamb]

Universal Atonement

As a Lutheran I believe in Universal atonement (yet not universalism). Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. How do those who believe in limited atonement get around that? Is it finished as Jesus said or is it not?

 

[Support]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is here.

 

[Lamb]

God desires that all sinners to be saved (He doesn't say they will be) 2 Peter 3:9. If His atonement, as you say, was only for some, God is a liar because then He didn't truly desire for all to be saved. His plan of salvation covered the world since the entire world fell into it. To those who don't want His forgiveness, He allows them to turn away.

 

[psalms 91]

Free will is given to all, we choose our destiny. God desires that all be saved but all will not be because of the choices we make. The atonement is not limited as it is for all but if we xchoose not to partake of it then we are not saved. God knows our choices but we still have free will to make them. Judas if he had turned would have been saved but of course he didnt.

 

[Lamb]

I don't believe in decision theology because of John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

 

[Lamb]

Another thought concerns the Keys of the church as well as the Great Commission.

Matthew 16:29: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”
And then we have John 20:23: If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained

If you don't believe that Christ died for all, you cannot proclaim forgiveness as Christ instructs because you just aren't sure that that person has forgiveness. Then what does that mean? It means that you've lied to someone? Christ doesn't lead us to lie, but Satan does.

The Great Commission: Matthew 28:19-20:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
and Mark 16:15-16 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.…

How do you go out and proclaim Christ's death for forgiveness if you don't believe he died for all? You don't really. You can only go out and proclaim his death and then they have to believe and maybe they're just lucky to get saved? Again, it's not Christ's plan to deceive people.

Christ died for all. He tells us in scripture to go out and proclaim this. That is the pure sweetness of the Gospel. The assurance we have and that our faith latches so we can believe.

 

[brinny]

I don't believe in decision theology because of John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

When Jesus said to the disciples "follow me", they did. It's similar for all of us. We either follow Christ or we don't.

It is also written that many will say Lord Lord, yet He will say to many to depart from Him for He never knew them.

To follow Christ is a decision. It was similar for Abraham, and every Godly man in Biblical history. They chose to follow. For this they were counted as righteous.

There's more, but i'll leave it here for now.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Lamb]

When Jesus said to the disciples "follow me", they did. It's similar for all of us. We either follow Christ or we don't.

It is also written that many will say Lord Lord, yet He will say to many to depart from Him for He never knew them.

To follow Christ is a decision. It was similar for Abraham, and every Godly man in Biblical history. They chose to follow. For this they were counted as righteous.

There's more, but i'll leave it here for now.

Thank you kindly.

You can't follow unless you first have faith

 

[brinny]

You can't follow unless you first have faith

Where does faith come from?

Thank you kindly.

 

[psalms 91]

Seems to me that has a lot more to do with foreknowledge of the choices we will make otherwise where is the free will?

 

[psalms 91]

I don't believe in decision theology because of John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Last post was supposed to quote this

 

[psalms 91]

Another thought concerns the Keys of the church as well as the Great Commission.

Matthew 16:29: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”
And then we have John 20:23: If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained

If you don't believe that Christ died for all, you cannot proclaim forgiveness as Christ instructs because you just aren't sure that that person has forgiveness. Then what does that mean? It means that you've lied to someone? Christ doesn't lead us to lie, but Satan does.

The Great Commission: Matthew 28:19-20:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
and Mark 16:15-16 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.…

How do you go out and proclaim Christ's death for forgiveness if you don't believe he died for all? You don't really. You can only go out and proclaim his death and then they have to believe and maybe they're just lucky to get saved? Again, it's not Christ's plan to deceive people.

Christ died for all. He tells us in scripture to go out and proclaim this. That is the pure sweetness of the Gospel. The assurance we have and that our faith latches so we can believe.

Romans 10:9-10

 

[Lamb]

Hey, how about a new thread so this all doesn't get lost?

 

[Lamb]

So this morning I've been going through 1 John 2:2 using Biblegateway.com to see the different versions. They all either say "whole world" or sins of everyone or something comparable. I don't have time to check the other versions but I doubt it's any different.

I think of how Jesus said for us to have faith of a little child. There are quite a few verses in the New Testament backing up that Jesus died for the whole world and God has allowed those all to be printed since the printing press came into being in the 1500s. Why would God tell us to use scripture and have faith of a little child if scripture were truly misleading and whole or all didn't really mean it?

Faith of a child. Child hears "Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins for the whole world" and he/she hears, "Jesus died for Mommy, Jesus died for Daddy, Jesus died for Nana, etc..." That's the faith of a child. That's the Gospel in all its sweet pureness, not changed by man who had to reason it out in his head. God makes it simple enough that a child can even understand and doesn't complicate it as man does.

I've gone over my usual limit of paragraphs I prefer to type but to add to the child concept, I also think of a loving Father. I love my daughter very much and my extended children were her friends, my Girl Scout troops and even the students in my classes. If I had to do something to help save them, even if they turned their backs on me, I'd still do it because I loved them. I'm a protective Mommy. God loves us even more so and what great Mercy He has upon those who would even reject Him. That's the love of a true Father. That's the compassion He has for the world. We are all His children of the world and God loves us so much He died for us. Which child of yours would you not die for?

 

[Hammster]

God desires that all sinners to be saved (He doesn't say they will be) 2 Peter 3:9. If His atonement, as you say, was only for some, God is a liar because then He didn't truly desire for all to be saved. His plan of salvation covered the world since the entire world fell into it. To those who don't want His forgiveness, He allows them to turn away.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

This doesn't say that God wishes all sinners to be saved. It says that He is patient and will wait for all to reach repentance. The "you" are the elect. If you read this in context of the entire letter, you'll see that this does not have a universal application.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

Free will is given to all, we choose our destiny. God desires that all be saved but all will not be because of the choices we make. The atonement is not limited as it is for all but if we xchoose not to partake of it then we are not saved. God knows our choices but we still have free will to make them. Judas if he had turned would have been saved but of course he didnt.

In the original atonement (the type and shadow of Christ's atonement), the people didn't choose to participate. It's clear that it was limited to those for whom it was intended.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

Another thought concerns the Keys of the church as well as the Great Commission.

Matthew 16:29: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”
And then we have John 20:23: If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained

If you don't believe that Christ died for all, you cannot proclaim forgiveness as Christ instructs because you just aren't sure that that person has forgiveness. Then what does that mean? It means that you've lied to someone? Christ doesn't lead us to lie, but Satan does.

The Great Commission: Matthew 28:19-20:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
and Mark 16:15-16 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.…

How do you go out and proclaim Christ's death for forgiveness if you don't believe he died for all? You don't really. You can only go out and proclaim his death and then they have to believe and maybe they're just lucky to get saved? Again, it's not Christ's plan to deceive people.

Christ died for all. He tells us in scripture to go out and proclaim this. That is the pure sweetness of the Gospel. The assurance we have and that our faith latches so we can believe.

I tell people that Jesus died for sinners. And that if they believe, they will be saved.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

So this morning I've been going through 1 John 2:2 using Biblegateway.com to see the different versions. They all either say "whole world" or sins of everyone or something comparable. I don't have time to check the other versions but I doubt it's any different.

I think of how Jesus said for us to have faith of a little child. There are quite a few verses in the New Testament backing up that Jesus died for the whole world and God has allowed those all to be printed since the printing press came into being in the 1500s. Why would God tell us to use scripture and have faith of a little child if scripture were truly misleading and whole or all didn't really mean it?

Faith of a child. Child hears "Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins for the whole world" and he/she hears, "Jesus died for Mommy, Jesus died for Daddy, Jesus died for Nana, etc..." That's the faith of a child. That's the Gospel in all its sweet pureness, not changed by man who had to reason it out in his head. God makes it simple enough that a child can even understand and doesn't complicate it as man does.

I've gone over my usual limit of paragraphs I prefer to type but to add to the child concept, I also think of a loving Father. I love my daughter very much and my extended children were her friends, my Girl Scout troops and even the students in my classes. If I had to do something to help save them, even if they turned their backs on me, I'd still do it because I loved them. I'm a protective Mommy. God loves us even more so and what great Mercy He has upon those who would even reject Him. That's the love of a true Father. That's the compassion He has for the world. We are all His children of the world and God loves us so much He died for us. Which child of yours would you not die for?

Which child of mine would I send to hell eternally if they rejected me?

Not all are God's children. We are adopted into His family when we believe.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

I'd really like to know the answer to this: Why hasn't God influenced man to reprint the Bibles since the 1500s so that they reflect your version which would eliminate those terms "all" and "whole world" since you have stated that you don't believe that they say what they do? There aren't just a couple minor instances to alter either mind you.

 

[Hammster]

I'd really like to know the answer to this: Why hasn't God influenced man to reprint the Bibles since the 1500s so that they reflect your version which would eliminate those terms "all" and "whole world" since you have stated that you don't believe that they say what they do? There aren't just a couple minor instances to alter either mind you.

All has two clear definitions based on context. In most cases, it's assumed that it means everyone without distinction. But context shows this to not be the case.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.