TULIP is Not Just a Pretty Flower: Radical Calvinism

[atpollard]

One can accept positive predestination (Lutherans call it what the Bible does, election) WITHOUT imposing something entirely unknown and contrary to the Bible, a silly idea from Greek philosophy, DOUBLE predestination.

This statement is utter nonsense.
Please explain to me how God can elect/predestine some to salvation, but not elect/predestine the others to not be saved. How can someone NOT ELECTED/PREDESTINED by God still be saved?

I look forward to your explanation of this “non God initiated” salvation.

 

[atpollard]

LIMITED Atonement IS that Jesus died for only the minority.... that God DECIDED before the foundation of the world which people would NOT BE OFFERED grace, mercy, salvation.... for THOSE NAMED PERSONS, Jesus would be irrelevant, meaningless, of no purpose or value. The idea that God thus doesn't give them faith is simply the admission that faith would do nothing for them - there's nothing for that faith to apprehend, they are offered NOTHING. Faith in this senario really doens't mean anything, the whole point in TULIP is that God named which people would be offered grace (and thus the faith to apprehend it) and which would not (for whom faith is irrelevant since there's nothing for such faith to embrace).






Yup, in TULIP, faith is moot. It's all a result of LIMITED atonement; those chosen by name to never be offered grace or mercy or salvation or mercy are damned by that reality. They don't receive faith because it wouldn't do them any good, it wouldn't do anything since there's not anything for it to receive. Thus, you do as Calvinists seem to do: just ignore faith.


In TULIP, Justification (narrow) is simply God's LIMITED grace. In Lutheranism, it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. In Lutheranism, there's Sola Gratia because grace exists.... there's Solus Christus because Christ is there.... Sola Fide exists because this is how that grace is apprehended. Faith plays a role - it apprehends what is offered.

The affirmation that Jesus died for all ( 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 ) does not mean that ergo all are saved because, unlike in Calvinism, faith is not rendered irrelevant by the insistence that God chose those who would be abandoned and for whom there would be no grace (there goes Sola Gratia) and for whom there would be no Christ (there goes Solus Christus). Not all are saved because not all have faith.... NOT because God limited His grace and son, His mercy and grace to a minority of people.









In Calvinism, there is no forgiveness for most simply because God chose to not offer it to them...... they were named as the one who would never be extended grace, mercy, love, forgiveness... for them, there is no Christ, no Savior, no forgiveness because God chose to never extend that to them. Faith is irrelevant to them because there's nothing offered for it to accept, trust, rely upon, apprehend.

Your question here continues to reveal how in Calvinism, faith is irrelevant. Let's say I buy tickets to Hawaii for everyone at CH. But only some actually use the ticket and board the flight to Hawaii. How would the reality that not all used the ticket PROVE that actually I only bought tickets for a FEW and stayed up all night writing down the names of those whom I will refuse to be gracious to? It would only prove that there's another factor than my grace and the tickets I purchased... and that would be those who trust/rely/apprehend it (that's called pistis, faith). Faith is not irrelevant since no one could ever know if that faith can grasp anything.... faith is a factor because there IS something to accept or reject. See Ephesians 2:8, Romans 3:26, Acts 10:43.


Read https://lutheranreformation.org/theology/sola-fide/ As it points out, faith is moot if there is no solid OBJECT... if there is no grace for them.... no Christ for them..... then faith is irrelevant. Which is why in this radical Calvinist spin, there's just LIMITED atonement - most are just damned because God named most for that.



- Josiah



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You claim to want to talk about Limited Atonement, but all of your comments in response attack Calvinism on the issue of FAITH and not on the subject of Limited Atonement. OK, let’s talk about FAITH.

What is the source of FAITH, God or man?
In other words, where does FAITH come from?

 

[Josiah]

How can someone NOT ELECTED/PREDESTINED by God still be saved?

It seems you are able to ask questions.... okay... and evidently, you appoint you to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God (and everyone else) agrees with you... because you are SO smart.... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did).


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.





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[MennoSota]

It seems you are able to ask questions.... and evidently, you appoint one to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God agrees with you... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did).

But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very limited Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.




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Josiah, you didn't answer the question.

How can someone NOT ELECTED/PREDESTINED by God still be saved?

Please...answer the question. You keep reverting to your copy and paste answer that does not answer the question. Just answer the question.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, you didn't answer the question.

Read what I posted:

It seems you are able to ask questions.... and evidently, you appoint one to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God agrees with you... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did). God is not subject to you, my esteemed friend. God never appointed you to answer your own questions and never indicated He'd submit to your "answers" to your questions. God is bigger than you. God is not subject to your questions and certainly not your "answers" to them. I might add, especially when they flatly contradict what God has said.


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very limited Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.


.

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[MennoSota]

Josiah, you didn't answer the question.
Please...answer the question. You keep reverting to your copy and paste answer that does not answer the question. Just answer the question.

I read it...again. You didn't answer the question. You are very adept at slipping out from a direct answer. I assume you do this because you recognize the obvious flaw in your position, but won't admit it.

Read what I posted:







.

 

[Josiah]

MennoSota,

It seems you are able to ask questions.... okay... and evidently, you appoint you to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God (and everyone else) agrees with you... because you are SO smart.... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did).


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.





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MennoSota, my friend, I just lack your ego. I lack the ability and willingness to insist that God must listen to ME and agree to MY "answers" to MY questions - even if that boldly contradicts what God Himself has said. I lack the ego to read 1 John 2:2 for example and then tell God "that's wrong!" and found an ENTIRE THEOLOGICAL SYSTEM on God being wrong.

Luther said that humility is the foundation of all sound theology... that God is simply bigger than any man (even all of us together)... and that God need not submit to man's brain, we are to submit to God's Truth (whether we can wrap our puny brains around it or not); God is simply bigger than man. I realize, this is a fundamental difference in our perspectives. I can't answer all questions about the Trinity or the Two Natures of Christ but that doesn't make God wrong. I can't answer all questions of sinful puny men about 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 and so on - but it doesn't make God wrong, it just means God is bigger than me. I lack the ego, my friend, to read what God said in 1 John 2:2 and SO MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES and tell Him He's wrong.... and build a whole theology around God being wrong. I guess I just hold to a bigger God and a smaller self. Ask all the questions you want.... I'm going to point you to what God SAID.... if it doesn't answer all your questions, if God seems illogical to you... well.... that's your problem. To ME, God trumps man.




.

 

[atpollard]

It seems you are able to ask questions.... okay... and evidently, you appoint you to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God (and everyone else) agrees with you... because you are SO smart.... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did).


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.





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Since the question in #41 proved too hard for you (who knew that you could not explain your beliefs), perhaps you would want to give the questions in post #42 a try.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, you didn't answer the question.

Already addressed, MANY times over many months....


It seems you are able to ask questions.... and evidently, you appoint one to answer them, you, you concluding you are so incredibily smart..... okay.... but then you mandate that God agrees with you... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR claimed perfect "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did). God is not subject to you, my esteemed friend. God never appointed you to answer your own questions and never indicated He'd submit to your "answers" to your questions. God is bigger than you. God is not subject to your questions and certainly not your "answers" to them. I might add, especially when they flatly contradict what God has said. Friend, few Christians share your ego, your insistence that God submit to your brain and "answers" even when it flatly contradicts what God has clearly said. Friend, I don't share your amazing ego. Freind, we are commanded to be CARETAKERS of the MYSTERIES of God. There is no verse to support your claim that we must make God submit to one's "logic" and "answers" (even if such outright contadicts God). I can't "answer" every question about God and the things of God... the Trinity... the Two Natures of Christ.... etc. And that's okay for me but obviously not for you.


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissions (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus. No way for ANYONE to EVER know (or even guess) if their faith is embracing anything, whether Christ is for them, if they are on the long list of people for whom there is no love, no mercy, no forgiveness, no grace, no Savior, no Cross, no Christ... God naming MOST to be without love so that Hell gets most people and is well populated.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God desires only a few to do,you stress, in direct contradiction of what God has said) or to go to hell (like God has mandated that most do by naming them as people for whom there is no Savior, no grace, no mercy, no love, no nothing)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.





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[MennoSota]

Already addressed, MANY times over many months....


It seems you are able to ask questions.... and evidently, you appoint one to answer them, you, you concluding you are so incredibily smart..... okay.... but then you mandate that God agrees with you... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR claimed perfect "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did). God is not subject to you, my esteemed friend. God never appointed you to answer your own questions and never indicated He'd submit to your "answers" to your questions. God is bigger than you. God is not subject to your questions and certainly not your "answers" to them. I might add, especially when they flatly contradict what God has said.


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissions (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God desires only a few to do,you stress, in direct contradiction of what God has said) or to go to hell (like God has mandated that most do by naming them as people for whom there is no Savior, no grace, no mercy, no love, no nothing)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.





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This doesn't address the question, no matter how many times you paste it into the discussion.
You have shown that you will go to great lengths to avoid answering. It is simply your modus operandi.

 

[Josiah]

This doesn't address the question, no matter how many times you paste it into the discussion.
You have shown that you will go to great lengths to avoid answering. It is simply your modus operandi.

My God is not you or your brain or your insistence that your "answers" trump God's clear statements, such as in 1 John 2:2. When you can answer every question that might involve God..., and prove to me that God submits to the "answers" of radical later-day Calvinists (even when it directly contradicts what He has stated in Scripture), I'll participate. But frankly, I think God is bigger than you or any other Calvinist.

And of course, you have evaded everything I've posted.... and 1 John 2:2. And offered not one Scripture that states that God desires most people to fry in hell.... that God chose most people to be WITHOUT His love, mercy, grace, Savior... that 1 John 2:2 is wrong. Only YOUR questions which you appoint one to answer - yourself - then insisting that since you are smarter than God, God MUST agree to. Luther said that humility is the foundation of all sound theology (God being bigger and smarter than self) but you seem to hold that your "answers" to your questions is the foundation of all correct theology, even if it obviously contradicts what God has actually stated. You seem to have a little god but a big self. I bow before God, you seem to want God to bow to you. I think this is a foundational problem in radical later-day Calvinism.... and the reason why much of it ended up in Universalism and Unitarianism, with one's brain simply trumping what God actually said since what God said isn't correct or "logical" to them. If God doesn't answer all their own questions in conformity to their own answers, God is simply wrong.

See 1 John 2:2 for starters. Quote the verses that state, "God desires most people to fry in hell." "Jesus died for only a minority of people and not for most." "The love, mercy and grace of God is irrelevant for most people because God withholds it from them and doesn't want them to have it since then He couldn't send most to Hell." "Faith is meaningless because there is no way to know if that faith is actually embracing something for them." But I think what God actually says doesn't mean much to these radical, later-day Calvinists (note how they just totally dismiss 1 John 2:2 and SO many other Scriptures), what matters is this foundational obsession: God wants most to fry in hell and thus insures that by limiting Christ.




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[atpollard]

What is the source of FAITH, God or man?
In other words, where does FAITH come from?

God says:

[Act 3:16 NASB] 16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, [it is] the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which [comes] through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
... “faith” comes through Jesus

[Act 15:9 NASB] 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
... it is God who employs faith as a means to cleanse men’s hearts.

[Rom 1:5 NASB] 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about [the] obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
... The gentiles did not bring their faith to God. God sent an apostle to bring “obedience of faith” to them.

[Rom 10:17 NASB] 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
... faith is not innate to fallen man, it comes to us

[Rom 12:3 NASB] 3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
... faith is allotted by God.

[1Co 2:5 NASB] 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
... faith rests on the power of God.

[1Co 12:9 NASB] 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
... the Holy Spirit gives the gift of faith.

[Eph 2:8 NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
... salvation, grace and faith are all the gift of God.

[Eph 6:23 NASB] 23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
... faith from God the Father and Jesus Christ.

[2Th 3:2 NASB] 2 and that we will be rescued from perverse and evil men; for not all have faith.
... an important reminder that faith is not universal. Not all have ‘God given’ faith.

[Heb 12:2 NASB] 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
... Jesus is the author of our faith. Jesus is the perfecter of our faith.

[2Pe 1:1 NASB] 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
... If we ‘recieved’ a faith, then we once did not have it (before we received it) and it does not originate with us.

[1Jo 5:4 NASB] 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
... faith is born of God, so faith can overcome the world. A faith born of fallen man can not overcome the world.

See, scripture tells us where FAITH comes from. It did not require any philosophy of man. You could have answered if you wanted to.

 

[Josiah]

In radical Calvinism, faith is entirely irrelevant (which is why radical Calvinists rarely mentioned it and why they think unlimited grace equals universalism). In TULIP, there is NO WAY to even guess if one's faith is even relevant (which is why it's not in radical Calvinism)... no way to even GUESS if such faith is actually embracing anything for them. The foundation of TULIP is that God desires most to fry in hell, for hell to be greatly populated, and to insure that, they are named as folks for whom Jesus would not exist, mercy would not exist for them, grace would not exist for them, forgiveness would not exist for them - they are named on the list of folks for whom salvation doesn't exist. How does one know that their faith is grasping/trusting/relying on something available to THEM (as the minority of people)? They can't. It's a repudiation of Sola Gratia because for most, it doesn't exist. A repudiation of Solus Christus because for most it doesen't exist. A repudiation of Sola Fide because faith is irrelevant.... the only thing that matters is if they were actively chosen before Creation to be on the "Not available to them" list (as most are). Radical Calvinism all flows from LIMITED atonement..... God's love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, salvation doesn't exist for most people.... Jesus didn't die for most people. Of course, obviously, it is VERY unbiblical ( 1 John 2:2, etc., etc., etc.)






.

 

[atpollard]

In radical Calvinism, faith is entirely irrelevant (which is why radical Calvinists rarely mentioned it and why they think unlimited grace equals universalism). In TULIP, there is NO WAY to even guess if one's faith is even relevant (which is why it's not in radical Calvinism)... no way to even GUESS if such faith is actually embracing anything for them. The foundation of TULIP is that God desires most to fry in hell, for hell to be greatly populated, and to insure that, they are named as folks for whom Jesus would not exist, mercy would not exist for them, grace would not exist for them, forgiveness would not exist for them - they are named on the list of folks for whom salvation doesn't exist. How does one know that their faith is grasping/trusting/relying on something available to THEM (as the minority of people)? They can't. It's a repudiation of Sola Gratia because for most, it doesn't exist. A repudiation of Solus Christus because for most it doesen't exist. A repudiation of Sola Fide because faith is irrelevant.... the only thing that matters is if they were actively chosen before Creation to be on the "Not available to them" list (as most are). Radical Calvinism all flows from LIMITED atonement..... God's love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, salvation doesn't exist for most people.... Jesus didn't die for most people. Of course, obviously, it is VERY unbiblical ( 1 John 2:2, etc., etc., etc.)
.

Strange, but YOU are the only one who seems to be talking about “irrelevant faith”.
... it must be a Radical Lutheran thing since Calvinists don’t believe faith is irrelevant. (Just a gift from God).

 

[atpollard]

It seems you are able to ask questions.... okay... and evidently, you appoint you to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God (and everyone else) agrees with you... because you are SO smart.... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did).


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.
.

I am actually looking forward to responding to this post, but it seems unfair for me to respond to your points when you ignore my questions.

You claim that Single Predestination is biblical and accuse all Calvinists of heresy by teaching that God predestines some to be saved and leaves the rest to their sin and damnation. So I repeat my question:

How can someone NOT ELECTED/PREDESTINED by God still be saved?

 

[Albion]

When we say that someone is predestined, we mean that he is predestined to receive saving Faith, not just given a free pass that is unrelated to Faith.

 

[Josiah]

It seems you are able to ask questions.... okay... and evidently, you appoint you to answer them..... okay.... but then you mandate that God (and everyone else) agrees with you... because you are SO smart.... therein lies the problem, your insistence that God submit to you, listen to you, accept YOUR "answers" to YOUR questions. This is the very rubric that lead so much of Calvinism to become Unitarian and Universalist (as most original Reformed churches in the USA did).


But your question undermines your own point, you claim that TULIP does NOT teach a double predestination and does NOT in any way indicate that God chose most for hell and desires most to fry..... but then you post that God does NOT want all to be saved and that God DOES chose to send some to hell. Your later admissons (while contradicting your earlier claims) is correct. TULIP is based on the premise that God wants most to go to hell and fry, which is why He named most be exempted from God's mercy, grace, forgiveness, salvation - that Jesus would NOT die for their sins. This LIMITED ATONEMENT premise thus leads to the "logical" idea that most aren't given faith simply because there would be nothing for such faith to grasp being that there is no mercy for them to claim, no grace for faith to embrace, no Savior for them at all. Thus your point that faith is irrelevant.


The Calvinist position is that God desires most to go to Hell, to populate hell, that 1 John 2:2 simply is not correct. It's very LIMITED atonement, a very LIMITED Jesus.

The Lutheran position is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. God's unconditional/unmerited love is for all (just as the Bible says), that Christ died for all (just as the Bible says) and thus His grace and Savior is available to all.... where there is faith, there IS justification because such faith DOES embrace what is there.


Among the MANY problems with TULIP (including not a single Scripture teaches it, only the T has ANY Scripture that teaches such) is basing everything on LIMITED atonement means that no one can know if they are saved or not, going to heaven (like God wants a few to do) or to hell (like God has mandated that most do)... having faith is entirely irrelevant (as you keep indicating by ignoring it) since there's no way to know or even guess if that faith is apprehending anything, no way to know if Christ died for THEM, if God's mercy is available to THEM, if God's forgiveness even exists in their case. Grace isn't there for most (so no Sola Gratia).... Christ isn't there for most (so no Solus Christus) and faith is irrelevant since in most cases, there's nothing for it to trust, rely upon, apprehend. All but the "T" are just unbiblical, "logical" constructs to apply the LIMITED Atonement assumption (in spite of 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures) all to make salvation uncertain.


.

it seems unfair for me to respond to your points when you ignore my questions.

AGAIN, yet again, still one more time, I don't buy into your ego, your premise that YOU should ask questions then YOU should answer them and GOD must agree or He's not as smart as you. I don't claim to be smarter than God. I don't claim to be the corrector of God. I don't claim to be the ONE who is to make God make sense to me. I can't find a verse that orders each of us: "Thou shalt answer all questions any asks and mandate that God agrees." Or "Thou must make God make sense." Or "Thou shalt change what God says so that it is logical to puny human brains." What Scripture mandates is that we be CARETAKERS of the MYSTERIES of God. That means protecting whI just lack the in credible ego to radical Calvinists. at God said rather than theorizing and changing what He said to match the correct some bloat came up with. I don't have all the answers to all questions, I don't claim to be smarter than God, I don't claim to be God's "Answer Man" and corrector... But when your "answer" to your questions flatly contradicts what God has said, such as in 1 John 2:2, I see that as a problem. I just don't agree that you are smarter than God. We may have to just agree to disagree on that. Luther said that humility is the foundation of all good theology, you seem to believe that your answers is the foundation of all good theology - even if it contradicts God. We just have a different approach to theology and God, my friend.

You claim that Single Predestination is biblical and accuse all Calvinists of heresy by teaching that God predestines some to be saved and leaves the rest to their sin and damnation

No. I said that radical Calvinism teaches LIMITED atonement which means God named most people who would be left without His love, His mercy, His grace, His Savior... and that that horrible teaching is unbiblical. NOTHING for their faith to apprehend since nothing is there for them. The reality that you just ignore 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures..... and just rely on YOUR BRAIN, your "answers" to your own "questions" and mandate that God just submits to your superior intelligence ... well... it knd of makes my point. Radical Calvinism and Arminianism are both (equally) humanly "logical" constructions that flatly contradict what God has so clearly said.




.

 

[atpollard]

AGAIN, yet again, still one more time, I don't buy into your ego, your premise that YOU should ask questions then YOU should answer them and GOD must agree or He's not as smart as you. I don't claim to be smarter than God. I don't claim to be the corrector of God. I don't claim to be the ONE who is to make God make sense to me. I can't find a verse that orders each of us: "Thou shalt answer all questions any asks and mandate that God agrees." Or "Thou must make God make sense." Or "Thou shalt change what God says so that it is logical to puny human brains." What Scripture mandates is that we be CARETAKERS of the MYSTERIES of God. That means protecting whI just lack the in credible ego to radical Calvinists. at God said rather than theorizing and changing what He said to match the correct some bloat came up with. I don't have all the answers to all questions, I don't claim to be smarter than God, I don't claim to be God's "Answer Man" and corrector... But when your "answer" to your questions flatly contradicts what God has said, such as in 1 John 2:2, I see that as a problem. I just don't agree that you are smarter than God. We may have to just agree to disagree on that. Luther said that humility is the foundation of all good theology, you seem to believe that your answers is the foundation of all good theology - even if it contradicts God. We just have a different approach to theology and God, my friend.







No. I said that radical Calvinism teaches LIMITED atonement which means God named most people who would be left without His love, His mercy, His grace, His Savior... and that that horrible teaching is unbiblical. NOTHING for their faith to apprehend since nothing is there for them. The reality that you just ignore 1 John 2:2 and so many other Scriptures..... and just rely on YOUR BRAIN, your "answers" to your own "questions" and mandate that God just submits to your superior intelligence ... well... it knd of makes my point. Radical Calvinism and Arminianism are both (equally) humanly "logical" constructions that flatly contradict what God has so clearly said.
.

Calvinists, both historically and those currently calling themselves Calvinist do not believe and have never believed what you claim “radical Calvinists” believe. R.C. Sproul has pointed this out to you with evidence from historic confessions, but you have ignored him. I have stated this to you (as a living Calvinist), but you have ignored me. MennoSota has stated that he (also a living Calvinist) does not believe what you claim ‘radical Calvinists’ believe.

Since you refuse to be swayed by any evidence or engage in any discussion without simply regurgitating your slander about what Calvinists DO NOT believe, there is no point in responding further to your LIES.

I have never insisted that God accept what I “question” and “answer”.
I have merely attempted to ask you questions that God has already answered to lead you to the truth of God’s answers.
You steadfastly refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion on the word of God, you just keep telling lies about what I believe.

 

[MennoSota]

Calvinists, both historically and those currently calling themselves Calvinist do not believe and have never believed what you claim “radical Calvinists” believe. R.C. Sproul has pointed this out to you with evidence from historic confessions, but you have ignored him. I have stated this to you (as a living Calvinist), but you have ignored me. MennoSota has stated that he (also a living Calvinist) does not believe what you claim ‘radical Calvinists’ believe.

Since you refuse to be swayed by any evidence or engage in any discussion without simply regurgitating your slander about what Calvinists DO NOT believe, there is no point in responding further to your LIES.

I have never insisted that God accept what I “question” and “answer”.
I have merely attempted to ask you questions that God has already answered to lead you to the truth of God’s answers.
You steadfastly refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion on the word of God, you just keep telling lies about what I believe.

Indeed, you are correct, atpollard.

 

[atpollard]

U: "unconditional election"

Calvinism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation and the others (reprobates) for damnation.
Arminianism: Before the world was created, God foresaw those who would choose Him of their own free will and elected them to salvation
Lutheranism: Before the world was created, God unconditionally elected some (the elect) for salvation but did not reprobate (chose for damnation) any.
Relevant Bible passages: Romans 9:11; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 2 Cor. 5:14-15; Mat. 25:34.

Just for the record (since Josiah will not believe any Calvinist on what Calvinists believe) this is not quite what Calvinists believe.

“The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.” - R.C. Sproul


[Romans 9:10-13 NASB]
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

In Romans, the Apostle Paul offers an illustration of God’s “election”. In that time and culture, it was common custom for the firstborn to receive the Patriarchal inheritance and blessing. The significant point here is that God made the choice, God made it before the twins were born, God did not make the decision because of anything they had done ... God made the decision so that the purpose of God might stand. In exactly the same way, our salvation does not rest on us, it rests entirely on the grace and sovereign decision of God.


DO CALVINISTS BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL SAVE PEOPLE WHETHER THEY COME TO FAITH OR NOT?

No. God has decreed certain conditions for salvation, including putting one’s faith in Jesus Christ. The issue here is that God saving people is more a part of the doctrine of justification rather than the doctrine of election. The Calvinist view of ‘Unconditional Election’ is a very narrow focus on a single point concerning one part of the doctrine of election.


“God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces him to save us.” - R.C. Sproul

Some people believe that it is on the basis of some future reaction, response, or activity by the saved that God elects to save certain people. This view often looks something like this:

In eternity past, God looked forward in time and saw who would say ‘yes’ and who would say ‘no’ to His offer of the gospel, and on the basis of this prior knowledge of who would some day have faith to believe in Jesus, God elects to save them.

This is called ‘CONDITIONAL ELECTION’, because God distributes his election grace based on some foreseen condition that people meet themselves.

‘UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION’ could also be called ‘Sovereign Election’. Unlike Conditional Election where the decision of God is based on some foreseen quality in the people, Unconditional/Sovereign Election is based on nothing in the people and is 100% based on the choice of God (as illustrated in Romans 9:10-13).


IS IT UNJUST FOR GOD TO SOVEREIGNLY GIVE GRACE TO SOME SINNERS AND WITHHOLD HIS GRACE FROM OTHER SINNERS?

No. Those denied God’s grace do not receive something that they do not deserve. It is not unjust for a sinner to perish for his sins. When a person sins and dies and is judged for their sin and receives punishment for those sins, they have received Justice, not injustice. When God shows grace to a sinner, he has not received justice, but he has received Mercy. So one group receives Justice and the other group receives Mercy, but no one receives injustice.


[Romans 9:14-15 NASB]
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

The Apostle Paul anticipated this question and answered with an emphatic “May it never be” or as another translation puts it “God forbid”. Even as far back as Moses, God had emphatically declared His sovereign right to display clemency when and where God desires. God bestows grace not on those who meet some preconditions, but on those that God is pleased to bestow it.


Some other Scriptures on Unconditional Election:

[Romans 8:28-39 NASB]
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." 37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


[Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.


[Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB]
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


[2 Timothy 1:8-11 NASB]
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with [me] in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.