The undisclosed age of “X”

atpollard

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A statement from the Lutheran perspective:

NO ONE in the Bible (for for the first 1600 years of Christianity) ever said, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and untill they hath celebrated their "X" birthday and we refuse to tell you what birthday that is."

Anti-Paedobaptism, invented by a few wackadoddle German Anabaptists in the 16th Century out of nothing; has no biblical support, as you document by not quoting a verse with such a limitation or mandate.


Since I am having trouble getting anyone to discuss this particular claim elsewhere, I decided to just post my response here for quick reference with a link.

My response to the claim stated above is:
NOBODY IS CLAIMING AN AGE BASED RESTRICTION ON BAPTISM.

There is no “X” birthday.
Now the burden falls on me to present evidence supporting my claim, and for anyone who wishes to refute it to present evidence of a church with an age based requirement.
 

atpollard

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The guideline for the beliefs of members of the Southern Baptist Convention is the Southern Baptist Faith and Message 2000. Here is the quote from the SBFM2000 on Baptism:

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.


I call your attention to the fact that there is absolutely no mention whatsoever of age in the SBFM2000 guidelines on Baptism.
Southern Baptists do not forbid baptism because a child has not “celebrated his X birthday”.
 

Albion

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A statement from the Lutheran perspective:

NO ONE in the Bible (for for the first 1600 years of Christianity) ever said, "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and untill they hath celebrated their "X" birthday and we refuse to tell you what birthday that is."

Anti-Paedobaptism, invented by a few wackadoddle German Anabaptists in the 16th Century out of nothing; has no biblical support, as you document by not quoting a verse with such a limitation or mandate.


Since I am having trouble getting anyone to discuss this particular claim elsewhere, I decided to just post my response here for quick reference with a link.

My response to the claim stated above is:
NOBODY IS CLAIMING AN AGE BASED RESTRICTION ON BAPTISM.
Unfortunately, that is exactly what the devotees of the Anabaptist POV here have done in their posts.
 

MennoSota

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Mennonite USA. The last paragraph states an "age of accountability." That age is never defined, however.

Confession of Faith In a Mennonite Perspective

Article 11. Baptism

We believe that the baptism of believers with water is a sign of their cleansing from sin. Baptism is also a pledge before the church of their covenant with God to walk in the way of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized into Christ and his body by the Spirit, water, and blood.

Baptism is a testimony to God’s gift of the Holy Spirit and the continuing work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Through the Spirit we repent and turn toward God in faith. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables believers to walk in newness of life, to live in community with Christ and the church, to offer Christ’s healing and forgiveness to those in need, to witness boldly to the good news of Christ, and to hope in the sharing of Christ’s future glory.

Baptism by water is a sign that a person has repented, received forgiveness, renounced evil, and died to sin,1 through the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Thus cleansed, believers are incorporated into Christ’s body on earth, the church. Baptism by water is also a pledge to serve Christ and to minister as a member of his body according to the gifts given to each one. Jesus himself requested water baptism at the beginning of his ministry and sent his followers to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”2 Baptism is done in obedience to Jesus’ command and as a public commitment to identify with Jesus Christ, not only in his baptism by water, but in his life in the Spirit and in his death in suffering love.

The baptism of blood, or baptism of suffering, is the offering of one’s life, even to death. Jesus understood the giving of his life through the shedding of his blood for others as a baptism.3 He also spoke about his disciples’ suffering and death as a baptism.4 Those who accept water baptism commit themselves to follow Jesus in giving their lives for others, in loving their enemies, and in renouncing violence, even when it means their own suffering or death.

Christian baptism is for those who confess their sins, repent, accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and commit themselves to follow Christ in obedience as members of his body, both giving and receiving care and counsel in the church.

Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith.

http://mennoniteusa.org/confession-of-faith/baptism/
 

atpollard

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The Church of God is a Pentecostal denomination founded in Tennessee and offers the following simple Declaration of Faith which includes its views on Baptism:

The Church of God believes the whole Bible to be completely and equally inspired and that it is the written Word of God. The Church of God has adopted the following Declaration of Faith as its standard and official expression of its doctrine.

We Believe:

In the verbal inspiration of the Bible.
In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.
Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.
In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.
In the Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet.
In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked.



I will once again call the attention of all to what is not listed. The Church of God places no restriction on Baptism based on having celebrated or not celebrated “X birthday”.
 

MennoSota

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Mennonite Brethren have no age of X.

What does baptism mean?
What does it actually do?
Do you have to be baptized to get to heaven?
What is the difference between being baptized as a baby and later in life?
What does church membership mean?
Why is it important?
What does church really mean anyway?
Should baptism and church membership be connected?

Answering these questions—and others we can list—starts with the meaning of “church.” At the beginning of the 16th*century Reformation, some leaders of this pivotal movement rediscovered the early church practice and biblical teaching that baptism and church membership were meant for people who could personally choose them. This was in contrast to infant baptism, which was the common practice of the time.

Those who committed to this practice became known as “believers churches.” Because they had been baptized as infants and chose to be baptized again, they were also called “Anabaptists,” meaning “re-baptizers.” This re-baptism was a symbol of their personal choice to believe and their desire to be a member in the church.

Different but connected meanings

The word church, as used in the New Testament, has two different but connected meanings. Many times it is used in reference to a particular community of believers in a specific location. For example, in 1 Corinthians 11:18, the Scriptures identify a local group of Jesus’ followers by saying, “When you come together as a church….”

The word is also used to indicate a wider spiritual community. When the Bible refers to believers as part of the “body of Christ,” as it does in Ephesians 4:12, it clearly means that all believers are in one body. The Bible assumes that being in a faith-follow relationship with Jesus places us in both the universal church and a local congregation.* The local church is the visible demonstration of the universal church.

What follows is that even though the Bible does not specify how to become a local church member, it does tell us that people who come to faith in Jesus naturally “become members” of a local assembly of believers. The Bible makes much of the picture that each member, or part of the local church body, is needed and important to make up the whole.

Why join a church?

The importance of being a church member finds its core reason in God’s plan for his followers. The Bible says that Christians “are a chosen people…God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light” (I Pet. 2:9).

Because followers of Jesus have in common peace with God and a mission from God, they are bound in a covenant relationship with him and one another.* The church is a partnering community of believers who exist more for others than themselves.

A second reason membership is important is the need that everyone has for a spiritual family in which to be nurtured. Ephesians 4:16 clarifies that* “the whole body…builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”* This indicates each member has a role to play for the mutual benefit of the whole family. And it also means that being clear about who is and who is not a part of this covenanting community facilitates this mutual accountability.

Hand-in-hand

Baseball and hotdogs. Apple pie and ice cream. We often say, “Some things just go together.” From a biblical point of view, membership and baptism are like that.* In fact, that is the assumed reality in the Bible.

When Jesus began his public ministry he chose to be baptized by John, even though it was entirely unnecessary for him to do so.* Jesus said that he wanted to be baptized even though he did not have to repent or have his sins washed away.* If it was good for Jesus, it must certainly be good for all believers to obediently follow his example.

Additionally—and even more to the point—in Matthew 28:16-20 Jesus clearly provides the mandate for Christian believers to be baptized. *Baptism, in part, means an entrance into a community of faith, a beginning of a new family relationship. The rich symbolism of dying with Christ and to oneself, being “buried with Christ and raised to new life” (Rom. 6:4) and having “sins washed away” (Acts 22:16) is celebrated each time baptism occurs in the life of the church.

The Bible plainly teaches that baptism follows personal commitment to faith in Jesus. (Rom. 10:9-10) In Bible times, everyone who came to faith in Jesus was baptized and became part of the church. When Jesus inaugurated the church he declared, “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).* The word he used for church is “ekklesia,” which means “gathered.”* Every follower of Jesus has been drawn together by Christ, called out of the world and into his church, both universal and local.

Because Jesus promised the thief on the cross that the thief would be with Jesus in paradise that very day we know that baptism and church membership are not mandatory to get to heaven.* Still, it would not be wise to build our theology and practice of baptism and membership based on that exception.

When young children come to faith in Jesus in their earlier years, it is prudent to allow them to develop in their faith until such a time as they can understand and appreciate the symbolic richness and depth of the experience of baptism. And while we accept various modes of believers’ baptism, we normally practice immersion because of the abundant symbolism it provides. The Bible clarifies that when we choose a faith-follow relationship with Christ, we die to ourselves, are buried with him and raised to a new life.

Many people these days tend to minimize the importance of baptism and church membership. But obeying Jesus’ command to be baptized and becoming a local member of his family is still God’s plan for us.

https://usmb.org/baptism-and-church-membership/
 

atpollard

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Mennonite USA. The last paragraph states an "age of accountability." That age is never defined, however.

Confession of Faith In a Mennonite Perspective

Article 11. Baptism

We believe that the baptism of believers with water is a sign of their cleansing from sin. Baptism is also a pledge before the church of their covenant with God to walk in the way of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized into Christ and his body by the Spirit, water, and blood.

Baptism is a testimony to God’s gift of the Holy Spirit and the continuing work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Through the Spirit we repent and turn toward God in faith. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables believers to walk in newness of life, to live in community with Christ and the church, to offer Christ’s healing and forgiveness to those in need, to witness boldly to the good news of Christ, and to hope in the sharing of Christ’s future glory.

Baptism by water is a sign that a person has repented, received forgiveness, renounced evil, and died to sin,1 through the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Thus cleansed, believers are incorporated into Christ’s body on earth, the church. Baptism by water is also a pledge to serve Christ and to minister as a member of his body according to the gifts given to each one. Jesus himself requested water baptism at the beginning of his ministry and sent his followers to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”2 Baptism is done in obedience to Jesus’ command and as a public commitment to identify with Jesus Christ, not only in his baptism by water, but in his life in the Spirit and in his death in suffering love.

The baptism of blood, or baptism of suffering, is the offering of one’s life, even to death. Jesus understood the giving of his life through the shedding of his blood for others as a baptism.3 He also spoke about his disciples’ suffering and death as a baptism.4 Those who accept water baptism commit themselves to follow Jesus in giving their lives for others, in loving their enemies, and in renouncing violence, even when it means their own suffering or death.

Christian baptism is for those who confess their sins, repent, accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and commit themselves to follow Christ in obedience as members of his body, both giving and receiving care and counsel in the church.

Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith.

http://mennoniteusa.org/confession-of-faith/baptism/

Would it be fair to characterize the Mennonite requirement as the “age of accountability” is when the ‘person’ (irrespective of age) can “request baptism” and understand what it is that they are requesting?
 

MennoSota

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Would it be fair to characterize the Mennonite requirement as the “age of accountability” is when the ‘person’ (irrespective of age) can “request baptism” and understand what it is that they are requesting?
Yes. They ask for confession of faith and ask if the person is committed to following Christ above all worldly things. They may wait to observe a person's faith before agreeing to baptize so that they can be assured the person is a believer.
There is no specific age of X, though the average age may be late teens or even early twenties as young people are observed to make sure they are requesting baptism because they are committed to Christ rather than asking due to social pressure. One cannot receive communion until one is baptized as communion is only for believers.
There is, however, no specific age of X.
I was not baptized until I was 20 when I was ready to fully commit to following Christ and others had observed my faith.
 

atpollard

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Unfortunately, that is exactly what the devotees of the Anabaptist POV here have done in their posts.


You will have to present the specific post in order to speak in specifics, however for myself, the opposition to baptizing infants is not because of their age, but rather, it is because infants have not and cannot do the other things that all people seem to be instructed in scripture (by word and example) to do together with or prior to baptism. I have never heard an infant profess belief or offer confession. So it is about obeying instructions and not about age for me ... hence my willingness to baptize a 4 year old that can profess belief and offer confession. I have stated that I would prefer a later age, but only for human memory development reasons. If someone meets God’s criteria to become a full member of the Body of Christ, who am I to say no ... and if someone does not meet God’s criteria to become a full member of the Body of Christ, who am I to say yes.
 

Albion

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Thanks. Yes, I thought it might come to fishing back through earlier posts in order to prove the point. On the other hand, I don't especially want to win anything by proving something. We will still continue to hold different views.

As for my view of your perspective on this, the idea that a 4 year old can make any meaningful profession of faith is ludicrous. You might as well baptize a parrot. And it certainly does not qualify as Credobapism for the reason that a Credobaptist requires a profession of faith, a conversion experience--not merely a recitation of some words.

But also, the use of a term like age-related might have confused the issue unnecessarily since I think now that it probably can be taken two different ways.
 

Josiah

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NOBODY IS CLAIMING AN AGE BASED RESTRICTION ON BAPTISM.


Wrong.


There were many dogmas invented (out of thin air) by the Anabaptists in the late 16th Century, some of these involve Baptism.


Among them are:


Anti-Paedobaptism.

Anti ("Against") Paedo ("person under 20 or so) Baptism.

The Dogma is that we are forbidden to baptize "Paedo." The word "paedo" has to do with age, it is exclusively about age, it has nothing to do with anything except age.

But the term Baptists use is extremely generic and general; it CAN refer to an unborn children but it equally can mean one in their late teens. It's VERY indefinite. But the Dogma is that "Paedo" are forbidden to be baptized. Never is that age given, and we find Baptists themselves very conflicted by this, some welcoming baptisms of 3 or 4 year olds, some not until the teens. Since what age is meant by "Paedo" is NOT defined, it can be expressed as "X." "That age is never defined, however." as stated above.

We find Baptists insisting that Baptisms of some are forbidden because "they are too young" They speak of the recipient being "too young." The issue there is AGE. This is the Anti-Paedobaptism dogma invented by the Anabaptists in the late 16th Century. Are there Baptists who don't accept this? Perhaps some do baptize infants but I'm not aware of any.


Anabaptists/Baptists have no Scripture and nothing from over 1500 years of Christianity to support this dogma. It is pure denominational tradition.




Credobaptism


Credo ("I believe") Baptism.

This dogma is that we are forbidden to baptize any unless - in chronological time - the recipient has first given sufficient evidence that they have previously chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. Some Baptists add other mandates, too - such as proving they are repentant, proving they are among those few for whom Jesus died, proving they are committed to a sinless life, proving they will join the church, etc., etc.,etc.


Anabaptists/Baptists have no Scripture and nothing from over 1500 years of Christianity to support this dogma. It is pure denominational tradition.





Immersion Baptism


Immersion (to be fully and entirely covered by water) Baptism

Pouring, dipping, sprinkling, or any other mode of applying water are dogmatically forbidden; anything less than full, complete, immersion of every cell of body makes for an invalid and forbidden baptism,

Anabaptists/Baptists have no Scripture and nothing from over 1500 years of Christianity to support this dogma. It is pure denominational tradition.


There are others, too.






.
 
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Josiah

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Mennonite USA. The last paragraph states an "age of accountability." That age is never defined, however.

Confession of Faith In a Mennonite Perspective

Article 11. Baptism

We believe that the baptism of believers with water is a sign of their cleansing from sin. Baptism is also a pledge before the church of their covenant with God to walk in the way of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized into Christ and his body by the Spirit, water, and blood.

Baptism is a testimony to God’s gift of the Holy Spirit and the continuing work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Through the Spirit we repent and turn toward God in faith. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables believers to walk in newness of life, to live in community with Christ and the church, to offer Christ’s healing and forgiveness to those in need, to witness boldly to the good news of Christ, and to hope in the sharing of Christ’s future glory.

Baptism by water is a sign that a person has repented, received forgiveness, renounced evil, and died to sin,1 through the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Thus cleansed, believers are incorporated into Christ’s body on earth, the church. Baptism by water is also a pledge to serve Christ and to minister as a member of his body according to the gifts given to each one. Jesus himself requested water baptism at the beginning of his ministry and sent his followers to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”2 Baptism is done in obedience to Jesus’ command and as a public commitment to identify with Jesus Christ, not only in his baptism by water, but in his life in the Spirit and in his death in suffering love.

The baptism of blood, or baptism of suffering, is the offering of one’s life, even to death. Jesus understood the giving of his life through the shedding of his blood for others as a baptism.3 He also spoke about his disciples’ suffering and death as a baptism.4 Those who accept water baptism commit themselves to follow Jesus in giving their lives for others, in loving their enemies, and in renouncing violence, even when it means their own suffering or death.

Christian baptism is for those who confess their sins, repent, accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, and commit themselves to follow Christ in obedience as members of his body, both giving and receiving care and counsel in the church.

Baptism is for those who are of the age of accountability and who freely request baptism on the basis of their response to Jesus Christ in faith.

http://mennoniteusa.org/confession-of-faith/baptism/





But as you note, it does exclude those under that "undefined age."


Anti-Paedobaptism.




.
 

atpollard

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Thanks. Yes, I thought it might come to fishing back through earlier posts in order to prove the point. On the other hand, I don't especially want to win anything by proving something. We will still continue to hold different views.

As for my view of your perspective on this, the idea that a 4 year old can make any meaningful profession of faith is ludicrous. You might as well baptize a parrot. And it certainly does not qualify as Credobapism for the reason that a Credobaptist requires a profession of faith, a conversion experience--not merely a recitation of some words.

But also, the use of a term like age-related might have confused the issue unnecessarily since I think now that it probably can be taken two different ways.
Are you admitting that you are baptizing people that have no more belief in Jesus than “a parrot”?
Some padeobaptists have claimed that God gives faith to infants at their baptism, yet you now claim that it is “ludicrous” to think that even a 4 year old can believe.
 

atpollard

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Wrong.

There were many dogmas invented (out of thin air) by the Anabaptists in the late 16th Century, some of these involve Baptism.

Among them are:
Anti-Paedobaptism.

Anti ("Against") Paedo ("person under 20 or so) Baptism.

The Dogma is that we are forbidden to baptize "Paedo." The word "paedo" has to do with age, it is exclusively about age, it has nothing to do with anything except age.

But the term Baptists use is extremely generic and general; it CAN refer to an unborn children but it equally can mean one in their late teens. It's VERY indefinite. But the Dogma is that "Paedo" are forbidden to be baptized. Never is that age given, and we find Baptists themselves very conflicted by this, some welcoming baptisms of 3 or 4 year olds, some not until the teens. Since what age is meant by "Paedo" is NOT defined, it can be expressed as "X." "That age is never defined, however." as stated above.

We find Baptists insisting that Baptisms of some are forbidden because "they are too young" They speak of the recipient being "too young." The issue there is AGE. This is the Anti-Paedobaptism dogma invented by the Anabaptists in the late 16th Century.
Can you show any modern church or denomination (one that actually exists) that restricts baptism based on age, and is that restriction BECAUSE of age alone or is age tied to some other restriction that they see as being Biblical?

Are there Baptists who don't accept this? Perhaps some do baptize infants but I'm not aware of any.
Why do the Baptists refuse to baptize anyone?
I presented the Southern Baptist position on Baptism and the Church of God position on baptism and neither excludes based on age alone. There is another reason they are excluding people from baptism.

[Credobaptism and Immersion Baptism have nothing to do with “The undisclosed age of X” and deserve a topic of there own, so I will address them later in a topic specifically for each of them.]
 

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But as you note, it does exclude those under that "undefined age."


Anti-Paedobaptism.




.
Simply because proof of faith is required before baptism into the body is given.
At what age is that proof of faith approved by the elders? This depends upon many factors so that there is no actual "age of X" that is legalistically demanded.
So, your age of X is a myth you have created. Even the most anabaptist group you could point to (Mennonites) do not have an age of X.
Josiah, you lose this argument by documentation. Will you continue to make an assertion that has now been absolutely proven false?
 

atpollard

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But as you note, it does exclude those under that "undefined age."
Anti-Paedobaptism.

I will probably regret admitting this, since you will use it out of context to claim what I do not mean, but you actually make a semi-valid point here.
The Mennonite position is closer to what you claim as “Anti-padeobaptism” than either the Southern Baptist or Church of God positions. However, you have ignored that MennoSota has already addressed that point when he and I discussed his Church’s position:

Yes. They ask for confession of faith and ask if the person is committed to following Christ above all worldly things. They may wait to observe a person's faith before agreeing to baptize so that they can be assured the person is a believer.
There is no specific age of X, though the average age may be late teens or even early twenties as young people are observed to make sure they are requesting baptism because they are committed to Christ rather than asking due to social pressure. One cannot receive communion until one is baptized as communion is only for believers.
There is, however, no specific age of X.
I was not baptized until I was 20 when I was ready to fully commit to following Christ and others had observed my faith.

Menno responded “They may wait to observe a person's faith before agreeing to baptize so that they can be assured the person is a believer.”. Thus someone in their “late teens” might be observed and permitted to be baptized into the Church because those observing (presumably the Church Elders) saw assurance the person was a believer, while someone in their “late twenties” (or even older) might be observed and not permitted to be baptized into the Church because those observing (presumably the Church Elders) saw no assurance the person was a believer. Thus the reason for permitting or denying baptism was not about any specific, but undisclosed AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY, it was about the observation of assurance the person was a believer.

With respect to infant baptism, is there any way the Church Elders can possibly “ask for confession of faith and ask if the person is committed to following Christ above all worldly things” and can the Church Elders possibly have already observed “a person's faith before agreeing to baptize so that they can be assured the person is a believer”?

Since they will not baptize anyone of any age that has not been observed and provided assurance that the person is a believer, how can they baptize someone who has not had time to be observed and who as yet has neither made a profession of faith, nor committed to following Christ? Can you see that the Mennonite issue of “age” is not actually about age at all ... it is about Credobaptism (which is why Credobaptism is a separate issue that deserves its own topic for discussion, because it applies to believers of ALL ages.)
 

Albion

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Menno responded “They may wait to observe a person's faith before agreeing to baptize so that they can be assured the person is a believer.”. Thus someone in their “late teens” might be observed and permitted to be baptized into the Church because those observing (presumably the Church Elders) saw assurance the person was a believer, while someone in their “late twenties” (or even older) might be observed and not permitted to be baptized into the Church because those observing (presumably the Church Elders) saw no assurance the person was a believer. Thus the reason for permitting or denying baptism was not about any specific, but undisclosed AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY, it was about the observation of assurance the person was a believer.
I don't believe this is correct. What is happening is that OF THOSE PERSONS THOUGHT CAPABLE OF MAKING A PROFESSION OF FAITH, the elders accepted as sufficient the profession without regard to the ages of the candidates. The age requirement, such as it is, is built into the process, but it exists.
 

atpollard

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I don't believe this is correct. What is happening is that OF THOSE PERSONS THOUGHT CAPABLE OF MAKING A PROFESSION OF FAITH, the elders accepted as sufficient the profession without regard to the ages of the candidates. The age requirement, such as it is, is built into the process, but it exists.

Perhaps, but why “late teens”? I note that students at the High School my daughter is about to attend are taking College Classes starting as young as age 14. Certainly someone capable of taking a College Course on the New Testament or studying Calculus at College should be “thought capable of making a profession of faith”. So there must be something more to it than just age and mental understanding.

It is just my opinion, but the missing ingredient is time to observe them grow in their faith. That is about age, but not directly about age, since it applies to a 30 year old man who just heard the gospel as much as a 10 year old boy that just heard the gospel.
 

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Perhaps, but why “late teens”? I note that students at the High School my daughter is about to attend are taking College Classes starting as young as age 14. Certainly someone capable of taking a College Course on the New Testament or studying Calculus at College should be “thought capable of making a profession of faith”. So there must be something more to it than just age and mental understanding.
No, its just that people generally consider a person in his teens old enough to understand the profession he makes.

It is just my opinion, but the missing ingredient is time to observe them grow in their faith. That is about age, but not directly about age, since it applies to a 30 year old man who just heard the gospel as much as a 10 year old boy that just heard the gospel.
Well, forgive me for saying it, but all of this simply illustrates the impossibility of going by the Credobaptist method of judging who is in and who is cut out. It sounds sensible and reasonable at first glance, the other theological issues aside; but when we consider how to implement the idea, this is what we get.
 

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Are you admitting that you are baptizing people that have no more belief in Jesus than “a parrot”?
Yes, and so are you (by your own statement). The difference is that I do not believe an infant is ineligible to receive a grace from God merely because a parent takes vows for him (as we know was done in the early church). You, however, believe that the candidate must make a meaningful profession of faith, and yet you will baptize people who have not the mental ability to make and understand such a profession, all the while insisting that this which is impossible for them is nevertheless a requirement! There is, at least, no contradiction in my view of the matter.

Some padeobaptists have claimed that God gives faith to infants at their baptism...

Yes, but I do not share that belief with them. I believe that grace for growth in faith is given, and I will also note that when they say Faith I do not think they mean simple comprehension.

I believe that God established the sacrament for the benefits it confers (among other things) and that this is sufficient, just like a vaccination protects a child against disease whether or not he understands immunology.




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